Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm
When the mental organ operates through the physical senses, it takes the name of the sense organ through which it operates. If that operation is disrupted, that sense organ is not active, and there will be no corresponding sense consciousness. So from a Buddhist point of view, anesthesia, literally "without sensation," shuts down the ability of the mind to function through the sense organs, placing one is an an unconscious state.
But mind is a sense organ too and it can operate in the absence of the activity of other sense organs (during sleep, for example).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am
There is no empathy in the glassy stare of a snake because he is in a woeful realm, that of a lower animal. It is not his only existence though according to Buddhism. He is only seeking survival, mating, and his next meal.

Karma implies a balance and justice and justice is a human-made term; but which came first? Perhaps karma "is what it is" (to use a term young people would say) and then later it is people who refer to it as justice. And then with this balance and equilibrium in the long-run, there would need to be rebirth.
Maybe karma as seen in other religious systems sounds like romantic justice but according to Buddhism karma is not justice. In practice, it means that a tormented mental continuum goes through eternal suffering because of its own obsurations, and there can be no justice as there is no one committing the negative deeds in the first place. If one is going to make up something along these lines, rather than inventing karma, it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm
When the mental organ operates through the physical senses, it takes the name of the sense organ through which it operates. If that operation is disrupted, that sense organ is not active, and there will be no corresponding sense consciousness. So from a Buddhist point of view, anesthesia, literally "without sensation," shuts down the ability of the mind to function through the sense organs, placing one is an an unconscious state.
But mind is a sense organ too and it can operate in the absence of the activity of other sense organs (during sleep, for example).
From a Vajrayāna point of view, when one is in a state of deep sleep, one is completely unconscious because the mind (manas), which rides upon vāyu in the body, has withdrawn into the center of the heart cakra. When one begins to wake, the mind (citta) moves out through the channels of the heart cakra, activating the eight consciousnesses channels which including the six sense consciousness. This is what is responsible for dreaming. When one is fully awake, the mind (vijñāna) not only functions through the eight channels of the heart cakra, but moves through the five physical sense organs as well.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm
DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am
There is no empathy in the glassy stare of a snake because he is in a woeful realm, that of a lower animal. It is not his only existence though according to Buddhism. He is only seeking survival, mating, and his next meal.

Karma implies a balance and justice and justice is a human-made term; but which came first? Perhaps karma "is what it is" (to use a term young people would say) and then later it is people who refer to it as justice. And then with this balance and equilibrium in the long-run, there would need to be rebirth.
Maybe karma as seen in other religious systems sounds like romantic justice but according to Buddhism karma is not justice. In practice, it means that a tormented mental continuum goes through eternal suffering because of its own obsurations, and there can be no justice as there is no one committing the negative deeds in the first place. If one is going to make up something along these lines, rather than inventing karma, it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.
Karma is not just in the sense of tending toward the public good.

It is just in the sense that it is equally unremitting, determining, and binding on all beings. Karma doesn't play favorites.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm

By the way, did we ever resolve what the word "awareness" means for the purpose of this discussion? Is it the same as consciousness, or different? Is it the same as mind, or different?

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:23 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm
DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am
There is no empathy in the glassy stare of a snake because he is in a woeful realm, that of a lower animal. It is not his only existence though according to Buddhism. He is only seeking survival, mating, and his next meal.

Karma implies a balance and justice and justice is a human-made term; but which came first? Perhaps karma "is what it is" (to use a term young people would say) and then later it is people who refer to it as justice. And then with this balance and equilibrium in the long-run, there would need to be rebirth.
Maybe karma as seen in other religious systems sounds like romantic justice but according to Buddhism karma is not justice. In practice, it means that a tormented mental continuum goes through eternal suffering because of its own obsurations, and there can be no justice as there is no one committing the negative deeds in the first place. If one is going to make up something along these lines, rather than inventing karma, it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.
Karma is not just in the sense of tending toward the public good.

It is just in the sense that it is equally unremitting, determining, and binding on all beings. Karma doesn't play favorites.
So is gravity, death, etc.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm
By the way, did we ever resolve what the word "awareness" means for the purpose of this discussion? Is it the same as consciousness, or different? Is it the same as mind, or different?
I still think that Q is dealing with the contradiction in terms his definition of awareness entails: an awareness that is not aware.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:23 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm


Maybe karma as seen in other religious systems sounds like romantic justice but according to Buddhism karma is not justice. In practice, it means that a tormented mental continuum goes through eternal suffering because of its own obsurations, and there can be no justice as there is no one committing the negative deeds in the first place. If one is going to make up something along these lines, rather than inventing karma, it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.
Karma is not just in the sense of tending toward the public good.

It is just in the sense that it is equally unremitting, determining, and binding on all beings. Karma doesn't play favorites.
So is gravity, death, etc.
Yes: birth, aging, sickness, death, over and over and over

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm
By the way, did we ever resolve what the word "awareness" means for the purpose of this discussion? Is it the same as consciousness, or different? Is it the same as mind, or different?
I still think that Q is dealing with the contradiction in terms his definition of awareness entails: an awareness that is not aware.
I'm tempted to reframe the question of awareness in this conversation in terms of Buddhahood and Buddha-nature, but I don't think I have the energy for that particular can of worms today.


I have good reason to suspect they are related. We're discussing what makes a sentient being a sentient being, as distinct from a Buddha. For this reason, the conversation involves some tacit assumptions around that term "Buddha."

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm
By the way, did we ever resolve what the word "awareness" means for the purpose of this discussion? Is it the same as consciousness, or different? Is it the same as mind, or different?
I still think that Q is dealing with the contradiction in terms his definition of awareness entails: an awareness that is not aware.
I'm tempted to reframe the question of awareness in this conversation in terms of Buddhahood and Buddha-nature, but I don't think I have the energy for that particular can of worms today.


I have good reason to suspect they are related. We're discussing what makes a sentient being a sentient being, as distinct from a Buddha. For this reason, the conversation involves some tacit assumptions around that term "Buddha."

It is pretty clear that what people mean by awareness in general is covered by the term samprajāna, and other related terms. The term originally means "to guard one's goods"
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm
When the mental organ operates through the physical senses, it takes the name of the sense organ through which it operates. If that operation is disrupted, that sense organ is not active, and there will be no corresponding sense consciousness. So from a Buddhist point of view, anesthesia, literally "without sensation," shuts down the ability of the mind to function through the sense organs, placing one is an an unconscious state.
But mind is a sense organ too and it can operate in the absence of the activity of other sense organs (during sleep, for example).
From a Vajrayāna point of view, when one is in a state of deep sleep, one is completely unconscious because the mind (manas), which rides upon vāyu in the body, has withdrawn into the center of the heart cakra. When one begins to wake, the mind (citta) moves out through the channels of the heart cakra, activating the eight consciousnesses channels which including the six sense consciousness. This is what is responsible for dreaming. When one is fully awake, the mind (vijñāna) not only functions through the eight channels of the heart cakra, but moves through the five physical sense organs as well.
Sorry, i should have been clearer: I meant during dreaming. The mind functions independently of the other sense organs during dreaming.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:43 pm
But mind is a sense organ too and it can operate in the absence of the activity of other sense organs (during sleep, for example).
From a Vajrayāna point of view, when one is in a state of deep sleep, one is completely unconscious because the mind (manas), which rides upon vāyu in the body, has withdrawn into the center of the heart cakra. When one begins to wake, the mind (citta) moves out through the channels of the heart cakra, activating the eight consciousnesses channels which including the six sense consciousness. This is what is responsible for dreaming. When one is fully awake, the mind (vijñāna) not only functions through the eight channels of the heart cakra, but moves through the five physical sense organs as well.
Sorry, i should have been clearer: I meant during dreaming. The mind functions independently of the other sense organs during dreaming.
As above, when dreaming, the mind moves through the channels of the heart activating the sense consciousnesses in absence of actual contact with sense objects. Since it also moves through the ālayavijñāna's channel, bijas are activated giving rise to dream appearances.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:41 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm
The nature of that connection is a mystery to many in the English-speaking world.
Is it only the English speaking world?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by smcj » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:42 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm
By the way, did we ever resolve what the word "awareness" means for the purpose of this discussion? Is it the same as consciousness, or different? Is it the same as mind, or different?
I still think that Q is dealing with the contradiction in terms his definition of awareness entails: an awareness that is not aware.
I'm tempted to reframe the question of awareness in this conversation in terms of Buddhahood and Buddha-nature, but I don't think I have the energy for that particular can of worms today.


I have good reason to suspect they are related. We're discussing what makes a sentient being a sentient being, as distinct from a Buddha. For this reason, the conversation involves some tacit assumptions around that term "Buddha."
:good:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:41 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm
The nature of that connection is a mystery to many in the English-speaking world.
Is it only the English speaking world?
Probably not. The English-speaking world is the one I know well, and I didn't want to claim more than I know.

Mostly I'm frustrated with books like this:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/679 ... ha-s-brain

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:26 pm


I still think that Q is dealing with the contradiction in terms his definition of awareness entails: an awareness that is not aware.
I'm tempted to reframe the question of awareness in this conversation in terms of Buddhahood and Buddha-nature, but I don't think I have the energy for that particular can of worms today.


I have good reason to suspect they are related. We're discussing what makes a sentient being a sentient being, as distinct from a Buddha. For this reason, the conversation involves some tacit assumptions around that term "Buddha."

It is pretty clear that what people mean by awareness in general is covered by the term samprajāna, and other related terms. The term originally means "to guard one's goods"
I'll take a stab at this, but I need those better versed in the taxonomy of the facets of being to help out here. I'll describe what I'm talking about, and ask you to help identify it.
  • Its the awareness that something is happening. It does not move beyond that - the impulse to explore "something" is not arisen yet; there is yet no discrimination.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm


I'm tempted to reframe the question of awareness in this conversation in terms of Buddhahood and Buddha-nature, but I don't think I have the energy for that particular can of worms today.


I have good reason to suspect they are related. We're discussing what makes a sentient being a sentient being, as distinct from a Buddha. For this reason, the conversation involves some tacit assumptions around that term "Buddha."

It is pretty clear that what people mean by awareness in general is covered by the term samprajāna, and other related terms. The term originally means "to guard one's goods"
I'll take a stab at this, but I need those better versed in the taxonomy of the facets of being to help out here. I'll describe what I'm talking about, and ask you to help identify it.
  • Its the awareness that something is happening. It does not move beyond that - the impulse to explore "something" is not arisen yet; there is yet no discrimination.
If there is awareness of something happening, it is an object-related awareness. if we were talking about this in Buddhist terms, this would be called a pratyakṣa, a cognition which is nonconceptual and does not discriminate its object. However, there cannot be direct perception in absence of an external sense object. Therefore, all valid cognitions which do not depend on external sense objects are called "inferences."These are discriminating cognitions.

In Abhidharma, the vijñānaskandha is considered to be nonconceptual, just this present moment of consciousness. There are no layers of consciousness or cognition below it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:08 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm
it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.
I don't think that nihilism leads to Hinayana nirvana. Nihilism asserts that the sum of everything is nothing. Its a type of idealism, in that it asserts an ultimate lack of meaning. It seems to me, that is an a priori assumption imposed on experience, rather than what is yielded by seeing phenomena without any notions - ie. to perceive purely. My understanding is that in seeing purely, it would not occur to draw a conclusion as to meaning or lack of meaning; either is a heavy handed projection. Taking account of the Hinayana path which is focused on disrupting the chain of causation at the point of tanha, we're talking about a release, not a heavy handed assumption of nothing (which must stand in contrast to something).
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:10 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:08 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:14 pm
it would be much better to subscribe to nihilism, which would ensure a kind of Hinayana nirvana for everyone, either immediately through suicide or in due time.
I don't think that nihilism leads to Hinayana nirvana. Nihilism asserts that the sum of everything is nothing. Its a type of idealism, in that it asserts an ultimate lack of meaning. It seems to me, that is an a priori assumption imposed on experience, rather than what is yielded by seeing phenomena without any notions - ie. to perceive purely. My understanding is that in seeing purely, it would not occur to draw a conclusion as to meaning or lack of meaning; either is a heavy handed projection. Taking account of the Hinayana path which is focused on disrupting the chain of causation at the point of tanha, we're talking about a release, not a heavy handed assumption of nothing (which must stand in contrast to something).
In general, the Hinayāna view is annihilationist (something becomes nothing) because of the assertion that the continuum of an arhat utterly perishes at the breakup of the aggregates.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:07 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 pm



It is pretty clear that what people mean by awareness in general is covered by the term samprajāna, and other related terms. The term originally means "to guard one's goods"
I'll take a stab at this, but I need those better versed in the taxonomy of the facets of being to help out here. I'll describe what I'm talking about, and ask you to help identify it.
  • Its the awareness that something is happening. It does not move beyond that - the impulse to explore "something" is not arisen yet; there is yet no discrimination.
If there is awareness of something happening, it is an object-related awareness. if we were talking about this in Buddhist terms, this would be called a pratyakṣa, a cognition which is nonconceptual and does not discriminate its object. However, there cannot be direct perception in absence of an external sense object. Therefore, all valid cognitions which do not depend on external sense objects are called "inferences."These are discriminating cognitions.

In Abhidharma, the vijñānaskandha is considered to be nonconceptual, just this present moment of consciousness. There are no layers of consciousness or cognition below it.
Its not an inference. Pratyaksa, if I am understanding correctly, does describe it, but pratyaksa is a descriptive distinction only. Vijnanaskandha - eh, doesn't capture it because it too idealistic/platonic/static.

The "something" is dynamic.

Getting closer.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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