Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

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Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm
Do you mean, a proof accessible to those who have not developed the five abhijñās, no. One can develop that capacity and ascertain it for oneself. Like the sciences, it requires training and education.
Are there examples who have achieved this insight and available for public inquiry?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by WeiHan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm
Do you mean, a proof accessible to those who have not developed the five abhijñās, no. One can develop that capacity and ascertain it for oneself. Like the sciences, it requires training and education.
Are there examples who have achieved this insight and available for public inquiry?
Mind over matter. That will be equivalent to performing miracles which i am sure there will be none. That is why i asked a 'milder" question of whether there is evidence of anyone attaining samadhis.

Back to the original issue of rebirth, there are actually many well documented cases of children remembering their past lives. There are some claims that hypnotising can induce memories of past lives, maybe we can try this if there is a chance.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:29 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm
Do you mean, a proof accessible to those who have not developed the five abhijñās, no. One can develop that capacity and ascertain it for oneself. Like the sciences, it requires training and education.
Are there examples who have achieved this insight and available for public inquiry?
The Buddha, for one.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:29 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm
Do you mean, a proof accessible to those who have not developed the five abhijñās, no. One can develop that capacity and ascertain it for oneself. Like the sciences, it requires training and education.
Are there examples who have achieved this insight and available for public inquiry?
The Buddha, for one.
Didn't have the karma to make that assembly.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:29 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:06 pm


Are there examples who have achieved this insight and available for public inquiry?
The Buddha, for one.
Didn't have the karma to make that assembly.
According to you, Śakyamuni Buddha is still there at Vulture's Peak. I think you can go ask him.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 pm
According to you, Śakyamuni Buddha is still there at Vulture's Peak. I think you can go ask him.
In the plans. In the meantime, don't you have immediate ready access? Come on, don't bogart the teachers.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 pm
According to you, Śakyamuni Buddha is still there at Vulture's Peak. I think you can go ask him.
In the plans. In the meantime, don't you have immediate ready access? Come on, don't bogart the teachers.
The two teachers I know personally who had abhijñā have passed away: one just recently, the other in 2006.

There are others, but you will have to research this on your own. In the meantime, I suggest you read this remarkable book:

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/rebirth ... t-research
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:03 pm

I've noticed that book, and it's on my 'must-read' list.

Also just re-read an earlier comment
Queequeg wrote:DNA seems to be a pretty good explanation of why we are who we are.
There are many - very many - human attributes and characteristics which I don't think are attributable to causes that can be understood purely through the lens of biology and evolutionary theory. I don't think there's any convincing biological reason for musicality or mathematical genius.

Furthermore, those cases I quoted from Stevenson's research into children with past-life memories are far from 'Rorscachs'. 'A child in India who said he remembered the life of boy who’d lost the fingers of his right hand in a fodder-chopping machine mishap was born with boneless stubs for fingers on his right hand only. This type of “unilateral brachydactyly” is so rare, Stevenson pointed out, that he couldn’t find a single medical publication of another case.' If Stevenson had been researching epidemiology, his cases would have been regarded as confirmatory evidence; but because of the subject matter of his enquiries, his findings were hardly ever accepted at face value.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:07 pm

As far as the 'immaterial nature of mind' is concerned - one way to think about that, is that 'judgement' is not something that can be explained in terms of neuroscience and so on. It is a very elusive faculty. Actually this Sanskrit word is relevant (even though I suspect it is more frequently associated with vedanta):
Viveka (Sanskrit: विवेक, translit. viveka) is a Sanskrit and Pali term translated into English as discernment or discrimination.[1] According to Rao and Paranjpe, viveka can be explained more fully as:

Sense of discrimination; wisdom; discrimination between the real and the unreal, between the self and the non-self, between the permanent and the impermanent; discriminative inquiry; right intuitive discrimination; ever present discrimination between the transient and the permanent.
I think it's not meaningful to consider such a faculty in any kind of physicalist or neurological sense, as it belongs to a completely different level of analysis - in fact we have to have such a faculty, to even develop a physicalist or neurological explanation of anything whatever.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:03 pm
Queequeg wrote:DNA seems to be a pretty good explanation of why we are who we are.
There are many - very many - human attributes and characteristics which I don't think are attributable to causes that can be understood purely through the lens of biology and evolutionary theory. I don't think there's any convincing biological reason for musicality or mathematical genius.

Furthermore, those cases I quoted from Stevenson's research into children with past-life memories are far from 'Rorscachs'. 'A child in India who said he remembered the life of boy who’d lost the fingers of his right hand in a fodder-chopping machine mishap was born with boneless stubs for fingers on his right hand only. This type of “unilateral brachydactyly” is so rare, Stevenson pointed out, that he couldn’t find a single medical publication of another case.' If Stevenson had been researching epidemiology, his cases would have been regarded as confirmatory evidence; but because of the subject matter of his enquiries, his findings were hardly ever accepted at face value.
Rebirth could be an explanation for those cases, but there are other explanations which are equally plausible.

For example, it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.

Regarding other attributes (e.g. - musicality or mathematical genius), I don’t see how rebirth would be an explanation for how these initially arose. I do understand how primitive man found art and music pleasing and may have been helpful for survival. See: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man

And certainly mathematics was helpful for survival.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:30 pm

Clyde wrote:it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.
Do you think Ian Stevenson wasn’t aware of this? He created a lot of protocols around excluding any cases that he believed were contaminated or fraudelent. He rejected many cases on those grounds. Those he investigated, he instigated strict empirical protocols.

And also, read the sentence again. Those particular class of instances were ones where children’s memories of trauma were corroborated by actual physical evidence.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:33 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 pm
Rebirth could be an explanation for those cases, but there are other explanations which are equally plausible.

For example, it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.

Regarding other attributes (e.g. - musicality or mathematical genius), I don’t see how rebirth would be an explanation for how these initially arose. I do understand how primitive man found art and music pleasing and may have been helpful for survival. See: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man

And certainly mathematics was helpful for survival.
So you don't believe in rebirth?

How does Pratītyasamutpāda for you then?

And the fact that the Buddha taught on rebirth in countless different Sutta and Sutra?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:47 pm

Offer skepticism, reap the wrath! And condescension.

I understand people have their beliefs. Those beliefs may even be founded on evidence one finds personally satisfactory. There is no incontrovertible evidence that settles the issue, though. As such, faith will be part of the equation for most people, acknowledged or not.

Personally, I believe. I also know a large part of the equation for me is that I want to believe. Rebirth is a critical part of a path I've dedicated a very significant part of my life to. Its a path that is of unequaled importance to me.

I raise questions, because these are questions that vex me. I'm looking for the insight that will put my doubt to rest.

Always nice to find such supportive counsel at DW!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:04 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:53 pm
Consciusness resides in the brain.
Consciouness does not reside in the brain.
Consciousness both does and does not reside in the brain.
Consciousness neither resides nor does not reside in the brain.

Take a pick, every one is guaranteed to lose! :smile:
The brain resides within consciousness. :cheers:
Cittamatra?
Last edited by tatpurusa on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Norwegian » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:09 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:47 pm
Offer skepticism, reap the wrath! And condescension.

I understand people have their beliefs. Those beliefs may even be founded on evidence one finds personally satisfactory. There is no incontrovertible evidence that settles the issue, though. As such, faith will be part of the equation for most people, acknowledged or not.

Personally, I believe. I also know a large part of the equation for me is that I want to believe. Rebirth is a critical part of a path I've dedicated a very significant part of my life to. Its a path that is of unequaled importance to me.

I raise questions, because these are questions that vex me. I'm looking for the insight that will put my doubt to rest.

Always nice to find such supportive counsel at DW!
These are the teachings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. To prefer physicalism/materialism, and consider the teachings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as problematic, on a board dedicated to Mahayana and Vajrayana is a little bit absurd, I think.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:22 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:30 pm
Clyde wrote:it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.
Do you think Ian Stevenson wasn’t aware of this? He created a lot of protocols around excluding any cases that he believed were contaminated or fraudelent. He rejected many cases on those grounds. Those he investigated, he instigated strict empirical protocols.

And also, read the sentence again. Those particular class of instances were ones where children’s memories of trauma were corroborated by actual physical evidence.
I’m not suggesting contamination or fraud. But what are you proposing? Are you proposing that because someone lost a limb in an accident in a previous life, they’re born deformed in this life??
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:33 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 pm
Rebirth could be an explanation for those cases, but there are other explanations which are equally plausible.

For example, it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.

Regarding other attributes (e.g. - musicality or mathematical genius), I don’t see how rebirth would be an explanation for how these initially arose. I do understand how primitive man found art and music pleasing and may have been helpful for survival. See: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man

And certainly mathematics was helpful for survival.
So you don't believe in rebirth?

How does Pratītyasamutpāda for you then?

And the fact that the Buddha taught on rebirth in countless different Sutta and Sutra?
I wrote that rebirth wasn’t the only explanation for so-called “former life memories”.

But to answer your question more directly: I don’t know. Do You?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:43 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:09 am
These are the teachings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. To prefer physicalism/materialism, and consider the teachings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as problematic, on a board dedicated to Mahayana and Vajrayana is a little bit absurd, I think.
That's what you have a comment on?

Keep it real there Norwegian.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:05 am

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:33 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 pm
Rebirth could be an explanation for those cases, but there are other explanations which are equally plausible.

For example, it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.

Regarding other attributes (e.g. - musicality or mathematical genius), I don’t see how rebirth would be an explanation for how these initially arose. I do understand how primitive man found art and music pleasing and may have been helpful for survival. See: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man

And certainly mathematics was helpful for survival.
So you don't believe in rebirth?

How does Pratītyasamutpāda for you then?

And the fact that the Buddha taught on rebirth in countless different Sutta and Sutra?
I wrote that rebirth wasn’t the only explanation for so-called “former life memories”.

But to answer your question more directly: I don’t know. Do You?
You don't know if you believe or don't believe in rebirth?

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:44 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:47 pm
Offer skepticism, reap the wrath! And condescension.

I understand people have their beliefs. Those beliefs may even be founded on evidence one finds personally satisfactory. There is no incontrovertible evidence that settles the issue, though. As such, faith will be part of the equation for most people, acknowledged or not.

Personally, I believe. I also know a large part of the equation for me is that I want to believe. Rebirth is a critical part of a path I've dedicated a very significant part of my life to. Its a path that is of unequaled importance to me.

I raise questions, because these are questions that vex me. I'm looking for the insight that will put my doubt to rest.

Always nice to find such supportive counsel at DW!
:good:

I appreciate Clyde's approach in this post:
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am
But to answer your question more directly: I don’t know. Do You?
an invitation to dialogue is more humane than piling on with the party line (and I am on board with the party line on this matter)

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