Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

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Snowbear
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Snowbear » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:46 pm
But now you have shifted the goal posts.
My bad.
You said: "Top-down means taking a religious text as authoritative first and finding evidence that fits."

And I replied: So you think that the Buddha developed a religion first and then went about fitting all experience and phenomena to that view?"

Are you going to answer the question to your assertion, or are you going to engage in ingenious smoke screens?
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Snowbear
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Snowbear » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.

tatpurusa
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:14 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experiences that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
This is completely in vane.
How can you "definitely prove" the objective and absolute existence of an appearance that by definition in Buddhism is illusion?
Or do Western Buddhists nowdays claim that samsara, rebirth, namarupa etc. are ultimately real?

You are beginning to "absolutize" "relative truth" (aka illusion)

tp

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
You could have just said that from the beginning and missed the annoying detour. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:16 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
An assertion is not an observation. As for it being 'the important assertion in this thread', that is your own assertion.

tatpurusa
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Everything within a dream is true relative to that dream as long as that particular dream lasts.

Life is a dream.
Samsara is a dream. This prolonged dream may or may not constitute of one or more different subdreams called life.

Enlightenment is a Western term.
Bodhi means waking up.

but I assume everyone knows that ...

tp

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:01 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm
Everything within a dream is true relative to that dream as long as that particular dream lasts.
The dream is infinitely long.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Crazywisdom
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:25 pm

Because of a Anatta, there is birth. If there is atta, could be no becoming into something and no birth.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:47 pm
Offer skepticism, reap the wrath! And condescension.

I understand people have their beliefs. Those beliefs may even be founded on evidence one finds personally satisfactory. There is no incontrovertible evidence that settles the issue, though.
There is, it simply requires specialized skills to be able to access that evidence.
As such, faith will be part of the equation for most people, acknowledged or not.

Yes, for those people without the requisite set of skills to access that evidence, faith is required. The Buddha never denied this.
I raise questions, because these are questions that vex me. I'm looking for the insight that will put my doubt to rest.
Dharmakīrti offers the best arguments in support of rebirth, but he does so in a series of questions, a decision tree, to ascertain if it is even worth discussing the issue with an opponent of the Buddhist view in general. For example, if someone believes that the mind is a product of material processes, then there is no point to discuss the issue any further. Such a person is incapable of accepting karma, dependent origination, and so on.

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:04 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm
I should have the time machine finished by Monday. It will take a few days to observe and jot down interviews of relevant parties involved in the origins and formation of Buddhism, and will have the final draft finished and handed in by the end of the week.
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
The truth or falsity of the doctrine of rebirth is dependent on yogic pratyakṣa, yogic direct perception, a result of samadhi that allows one to develop the concentration necessary develop the abhijñā of recalling past lives, as Buddha did during the night he demonstrated the deed of awakening on the Bodhimaṇḍa.

pael
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by pael » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm

... the mind is a product of material processes...
Can logic refute this?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm
Dharmakīrti offers the best arguments in support of rebirth, but he does so in a series of questions, a decision tree, to ascertain if it is even worth discussing the issue with an opponent of the Buddhist view in general. For example, if someone believes that the mind is a product of material processes, then there is no point to discuss the issue any further. Such a person is incapable of accepting karma, dependent origination, and so on.
IMO such a person would just believe that karma, DO, and so on, are processes that, in the end, govern the behaviour of what arises out of material processes. That is to say, they would believe in karma, DO, etc., as 'meta'-processes that govern material processes to produce emergent non-material phenomena.

Perhaps there is a reason Ven Dharmakīrti is Ven Dharmakīrti and I am un-Ven Nobody.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm
Dharmakīrti offers the best arguments in support of rebirth, but he does so in a series of questions, a decision tree, to ascertain if it is even worth discussing the issue with an opponent of the Buddhist view in general. For example, if someone believes that the mind is a product of material processes, then there is no point to discuss the issue any further. Such a person is incapable of accepting karma, dependent origination, and so on.
IMO such a person would just believe that karma, DO, and so on, are processes that, in the end, govern the behaviour of what arises out of material processes. That is to say, they would believe in karma, DO, etc., as 'meta'-processes that govern material processes to produce emergent non-material phenomena.

Perhaps there is a reason Ven Dharmakīrti is Ven Dharmakīrti and I am un-Ven Nobody.
The point of karma, dependent origination, and so on, is that the general theory of dependent origination was first taught by the Buddha so that people would stop asking him who they were in past lives. This is made very clear in Abhidharma, in chapter 3.

M

tatpurusa
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:01 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm
Everything within a dream is true relative to that dream as long as that particular dream lasts.
The dream is infinitely long.
If you mean figuratively, yes. Otherwise it would be the plain negation of Bodhi.

Anyway, exactly this is why we need the capacity of lucid dreaming .. ;)

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:06 pm

pael wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm

... the mind is a product of material processes...
Can logic refute this?
Yes.

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clyde
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:21 am
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am
I wrote that rebirth wasn’t the only explanation for so-called “former life memories”.
So you believe in rebirth AND other explanations?
No, I said nothing about belief.

Here’s my position on rebirth: I don’t know.

Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.

But it’s sometimes stimulating. And I sometimes hear something that leads me to new knowledge, new understanding.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:40 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm
Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.
It would be foolish to speak of rebirth as an ultimate principle, but since like rebirth, all things and the world are also conventional, if it is foolish to speak of rebirth, it is also foolish to speak of all things and the world. Rebirth, all things, and the world are conventional truths, empty, and without self-nature.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:20 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:00 pm
Dharmakīrti offers the best arguments in support of rebirth, but he does so in a series of questions, a decision tree, to ascertain if it is even worth discussing the issue with an opponent of the Buddhist view in general. For example, if someone believes that the mind is a product of material processes, then there is no point to discuss the issue any further. Such a person is incapable of accepting karma, dependent origination, and so on.
IMO such a person would just believe that karma, DO, and so on, are processes that, in the end, govern the behaviour of what arises out of material processes. That is to say, they would believe in karma, DO, etc., as 'meta'-processes that govern material processes to produce emergent non-material phenomena.

Perhaps there is a reason Ven Dharmakīrti is Ven Dharmakīrti and I am un-Ven Nobody.
The point of karma, dependent origination, and so on, is that the general theory of dependent origination was first taught by the Buddha so that people would stop asking him who they were in past lives. This is made very clear in Abhidharma, in chapter 3.

M
Samuccaya or kośa?
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:58 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:20 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 pm

IMO such a person would just believe that karma, DO, and so on, are processes that, in the end, govern the behaviour of what arises out of material processes. That is to say, they would believe in karma, DO, etc., as 'meta'-processes that govern material processes to produce emergent non-material phenomena.

Perhaps there is a reason Ven Dharmakīrti is Ven Dharmakīrti and I am un-Ven Nobody.
The point of karma, dependent origination, and so on, is that the general theory of dependent origination was first taught by the Buddha so that people would stop asking him who they were in past lives. This is made very clear in Abhidharma, in chapter 3.

M
Samuccaya or kośa?
Kosha.

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