Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

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clyde
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:40 pm
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm
Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.
It would be foolish to speak of rebirth as an ultimate principle, but since like rebirth, all things and the world are also conventional, if it is foolish to speak of rebirth, it is also foolish to speak of all things and the world. Rebirth, all things, and the world are conventional truths, empty, and without self-nature.
But it’s sometimes stimulating. And I sometimes hear something that leads me to new knowledge, new understanding.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:32 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm
No, I said nothing about belief.

Here’s my position on rebirth: I don’t know.

Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.

But it’s sometimes stimulating. And I sometimes hear something that leads me to new knowledge, new understanding.
So how do you reconcile what you believe with the fact that the Buddha, very clearly, taught rebirth?

Was he being foolish too?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:36 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:46 pm
If you mean figuratively, yes.
No, I mean samsara exists infitely.
Otherwise it would be the plain negation of Bodhi.
No, it is exactly why Bodhi is 100% necessary.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:10 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:32 pm
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm
No, I said nothing about belief.

Here’s my position on rebirth: I don’t know.

Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.

But it’s sometimes stimulating. And I sometimes hear something that leads me to new knowledge, new understanding.
So how do you reconcile what you believe with the fact that the Buddha, very clearly, taught rebirth?
Easily.
Was he being foolish too?
If he was, it was for our sake.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:19 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:10 pm
If he was, it was for our sake.
So basically you rationalise the conflicting views by considering that in some cases the Buddha was bullshitting us, rather than considering that you are bullshitting yourself? You essentially put your view above that of the Buddha?

Nice method. I think I'll pass though.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:48 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:21 am
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am
I wrote that rebirth wasn’t the only explanation for so-called “former life memories”.
So you believe in rebirth AND other explanations?
No, I said nothing about belief.

Here’s my position on rebirth: I don’t know.

Here’s what I do know: I know that if one sees that there is no self, no “I”, and if one sees that all things and the world, in all directions and times, are empty and without self-nature, then one knows it’s foolish to speak of rebirth.

But it’s sometimes stimulating. And I sometimes hear something that leads me to new knowledge, new understanding.
You could say the same for the existence of the Buddha.Your reasoning is an obstacle .
You are mixing ultimate and relative truth.
Last edited by amanitamusc on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:19 pm
clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:10 pm
If he was, it was for our sake.
So basically you rationalise conflicting views by considering that in some cases the Buddha was bullshitting us, rather than considering that you are bullshitting yourself? You essentially put your view above that of the Buddha?

Nice method. I think I'll pass though.
It could be he enjoys :stirthepot:

Motova
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Motova » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:24 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:33 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 pm
Rebirth could be an explanation for those cases, but there are other explanations which are equally plausible.

For example, it’s well known (and I’ve seen it with young children and adults suffering from dementia) that people will create stories (memories) to explain what they can’t remember or otherwise explain. It’s self-comforting behavior.

Regarding other attributes (e.g. - musicality or mathematical genius), I don’t see how rebirth would be an explanation for how these initially arose. I do understand how primitive man found art and music pleasing and may have been helpful for survival. See: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man

And certainly mathematics was helpful for survival.
So you don't believe in rebirth?

How does Pratītyasamutpāda for you then?

And the fact that the Buddha taught on rebirth in countless different Sutta and Sutra?
I wrote that rebirth wasn’t the only explanation for so-called “former life memories”.

But to answer your question more directly: I don’t know. Do You?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:04 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:00 pm
Now you are just being a jerk, so I will end the conversation here.
I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
The truth or falsity of the doctrine of rebirth is dependent on yogic pratyakṣa, yogic direct perception, a result of samadhi that allows one to develop the concentration necessary develop the abhijñā of recalling past lives, as Buddha did during the night he demonstrated the deed of awakening on the Bodhimaṇḍa.
For me, the best argument from
Buddha came as it’s a safe bet.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:42 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:38 am

For me, the best argument from
Buddha came as it’s a safe bet.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Norwegian » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:05 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:38 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:04 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm


I really don't have an answer for you. The important assertion in this thread is that there is nothing in personal experience that definitively proves rebirth takes place, so we as Buddhists accept it on faith. I think that is an accurate observation.
The truth or falsity of the doctrine of rebirth is dependent on yogic pratyakṣa, yogic direct perception, a result of samadhi that allows one to develop the concentration necessary develop the abhijñā of recalling past lives, as Buddha did during the night he demonstrated the deed of awakening on the Bodhimaṇḍa.
For me, the best argument from
Buddha came as it’s a safe bet.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
People should pay close attention to what the Buddha says about the four dhyanas and what the consequence of having perfected them are, in the section called "The four jhanas", and then the next section called "The three knowledges".

It is clear that the Buddha taught post-mortem rebirth, but that this was not something that should remain at mere belief. It's for the practitioner to experience that same process so that they too can come to recollect their past lives as well.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:06 pm

I’m on board w notion DO, anatta, anicca and dukkha are one compound that can be dissolved instantly in the water of insight into DO, and that rebirth and its end is demonstrated fully therein.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Supramundane » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 am

There is talk here about some not accepting rebirth; i don't think that is the case.

If you accept the Four Noble Truths and DO, this leads logically to the conclusion of rebirth: the only question is the form it will take and the exact parameters of what this entails.

the words reinacarnation and rebrith are sometimes used interchangeably in this discussion: they are not the same at all.

the question is what is the nitty-gritty of rebirth, for example:

is rebirth after i die of the same proportions as the way i was 20 years ago, say?

are they comparable states or drastically different?

or put another way: i am reborn every moment and the arrow of time is curved; after death is it curved too?

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Bristollad » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:38 am

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 am
or put another way: i am reborn every moment and the arrow of time is curved; after death is it curved too?
What do you mean by the arrow of time is curved?

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Supramundane » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:02 am

Bristollad wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:38 am
Supramundane wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 am
or put another way: i am reborn every moment and the arrow of time is curved; after death is it curved too?
What do you mean by the arrow of time is curved?
sorry, just restating the same thing in various ways.

the arrow of time only goes one way in terms of physics.

however, it is noted that in terms of human values, psychology, etc., it can be said to be curved into a loop, meaning that we invent the concepts of past and future and imagine that the past and the future have real meaning, thereby 'curving' the arrow of time.

so, although i am constantly being reborn, because my subjectivity makes the arrow of time curved, i believe in the illusion of self with a continuity between past, present and future.

after death however does this continuity endure?

is the break between rebirths during my life the same as the break between life and death? because it would seem that the arrow of time for a person is curved during his life but would be straight after death...

that is the real question that everyone wants to know, right?

sorry, perhaps i am not expressing myself clearly.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by WeiHan » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:07 pm

Consider this case of Chanai Choomalaiwong:
==
Chanai is a boy from Thailand, who, when he was three years old, began saying that he had been a teacher named Bua Kai who had been shot and killed as he rode his bike to school. He pleaded and begged to be taken to Bua Kai’s parents, who he felt were his own parents. He knew the village where they lived, and eventually convinced his grandmother to take him there. According to the research:

His grandmother reported that after they got off the bus, Chanai led her to a house where an older couple lived. Chanai appeared to recognize the couple, who were the parents of Bua Kai Lawnak, a teacher who had been shot and killed on the way to school five years before Chanai was born.

The fascinating thing is that Kai and Chanai had something in common. Kai, who was shot from behind, had small, round wounds on the back of his head, typical of an entry wound, and larger exit wounds on his forehead; Chanai was born with two birthmarks, a small, round birthmark on the back of his head, and a larger, irregularly shaped one towards the front.
==

The fact that Chanai birthmarks that matched exactly where Kai was shot both at the back of the head and the forehead make it a case which is very difficult for Chanai's family or someone else to make up. It is simply just very difficult if you think about it carefully. There are other explanations other than rebirth but those explanations seems so difficult with the birthmarks in place. This is a case documented by Tucker, Stevenson's successor, I think.
https://www.collective-evolution.com/20 ... ast-lives/

Bristollad
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Bristollad » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:55 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:02 am
Bristollad wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:38 am
Supramundane wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 am
or put another way: i am reborn every moment and the arrow of time is curved; after death is it curved too?
What do you mean by the arrow of time is curved?
sorry, just restating the same thing in various ways.

the arrow of time only goes one way in terms of physics.

however, it is noted that in terms of human values, psychology, etc., it can be said to be curved into a loop, meaning that we invent the concepts of past and future and imagine that the past and the future have real meaning, thereby 'curving' the arrow of time.

so, although i am constantly being reborn, because my subjectivity makes the arrow of time curved, i believe in the illusion of self with a continuity between past, present and future.

after death however does this continuity endure?

is the break between rebirths during my life the same as the break between life and death? because it would seem that the arrow of time for a person is curved during his life but would be straight after death...

that is the real question that everyone wants to know, right?

sorry, perhaps i am not expressing myself clearly.
:thanks: Thank you for trying to explain but I'm afraid I still don't understand your meaning. :thinking:

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Supramundane
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Supramundane » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:55 am

:)

for humans, the arrow of time is curved, i.e. time is a human construct.


the question is: "is the difference between me and the way i was twenty years ago the same as the difference between the me now and the me after death".

metta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:30 pm

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Bristollad
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Bristollad » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:55 am
:)

for humans, the arrow of time is curved, i.e. time is a human construct.


the question is: "is the difference between me and the way i was twenty years ago the same as the difference between the me now and the me after death".

metta
Human understanding of time is a human construct seems fairly obvious; a dog's understanding of time would not be the same. That human and canine understanding and experience of time is different doesn't mean that the arrow of time changes. Events still flow from the past to the present to the future for both canines and humans.

To determine whether the difference between you now and you twenty years, is the same as the difference between you now and you after your death, you'll have to first identify what that difference is in each case. And of course, without a solid understanding of you, you won't be able to get anywhere. Soooo... it's back to Chandrakirti's seven-fold reasoning for me!

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