Pure land transcending the triple realm?

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jhanapeacock
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Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by jhanapeacock » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:00 am

i have heard and read multiple times that the pure lands are beyond the triple realm. Now my question is the following: Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this? Is there a proof of this?

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Aryjna
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:57 am

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:00 am
i have heard and read multiple times that the pure lands are beyond the triple realm. Now my question is the following: Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this? Is there a proof of this?
What kind of proof do you mean?

jhanapeacock
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by jhanapeacock » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:51 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:57 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:00 am
i have heard and read multiple times that the pure lands are beyond the triple realm. Now my question is the following: Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this? Is there a proof of this?
What kind of proof do you mean?
proof that can be inferred from the scriptures.

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Aryjna
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:12 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:51 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:57 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:00 am
i have heard and read multiple times that the pure lands are beyond the triple realm. Now my question is the following: Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this? Is there a proof of this?
What kind of proof do you mean?
proof that can be inferred from the scriptures.
It is clearly explained in sutras that beings there never regress and progress to buddhahood, so it is beyond samsara.

http://www.bdk.or.jp/document/dgtl-dl/d ... s_2003.pdf

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:36 pm

:good:
Amitabha Sutra wrote:... none of the three evil realms exist in that buddha-land. Even the names of the three evil realms do not exist there, how much less the realms themselves.
...
Again, Shariputra, all sentient beings born in the Land of Utmost Bliss dwell in the state of non-retrogression. Many of them are in the stage of becoming a buddha after one more life.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-amida-butsu. -- Ippen

The virtuous man should recite nembutsu just as he is, as should the bad man. We regard faithful people, who repeat Nembutsu with a mind as pure as the day they were born, as those who do not require external support in nembutsu. However, if the bad rectify their misdeeds, become good and recite nembutsu, they will truly be in harmony with the heart of Buddha Amitabha. -- Master Hōnen

joy&peace
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by joy&peace » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:41 pm

Very good Monlam. :namaste:

Well said, and posted. :heart: :meditate: :meditate: :meditate:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

jhanapeacock
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by jhanapeacock » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:22 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:36 pm
:good:
Amitabha Sutra wrote:... none of the three evil realms exist in that buddha-land. Even the names of the three evil realms do not exist there, how much less the realms themselves.
...
Again, Shariputra, all sentient beings born in the Land of Utmost Bliss dwell in the state of non-retrogression. Many of them are in the stage of becoming a buddha after one more life.
Very nice, thank you!

jhanapeacock
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by jhanapeacock » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:25 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:36 pm
:good:
Amitabha Sutra wrote:... none of the three evil realms exist in that buddha-land. Even the names of the three evil realms do not exist there, how much less the realms themselves.
...
Again, Shariputra, all sentient beings born in the Land of Utmost Bliss dwell in the state of non-retrogression. Many of them are in the stage of becoming a buddha after one more life.
But i have a question, three evil realms means animal, ghost and hellish right? but i doesn´t say anything about form, desire and formless.

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Yes, animal, preta, hell realms are explicitly absent.

Not to give you too much reading to do, but Amitabha's 48 Vows from the Larger Sutra establish the characteristics of his Pure Land. If you compare the qualities of Sukhavati with the qualities of the six realms individually, I think it makes it clear that it lies outside the six realms. Non-retrogression and immeasurable lifespan are the first ones that come to mind.

There's also this thread about buddha-lands.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-amida-butsu. -- Ippen

The virtuous man should recite nembutsu just as he is, as should the bad man. We regard faithful people, who repeat Nembutsu with a mind as pure as the day they were born, as those who do not require external support in nembutsu. However, if the bad rectify their misdeeds, become good and recite nembutsu, they will truly be in harmony with the heart of Buddha Amitabha. -- Master Hōnen

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Astus
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by Astus » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:14 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:00 am
Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this? Is there a proof of this?
It seems to be more of a matter of reasoning regarding buddha-lands. Two important reasons for positioning Sukhavati beyond samsara are that (1) it came into existence due to Dharmakara's vows and (2) beings born there are driven by a wish for liberation. It is neither a result of ignorance, nor for the perpetuation of it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Grigoris
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Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:39 pm
If you compare the qualities of Sukhavati with the qualities of the six realms individually, I think it makes it clear that it lies outside the six realms. Non-retrogression and immeasurable lifespan are the first ones that come to mind.
And the fact that not even the word "suffering" (let alone the state of suffering) exists in these realms.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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