Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

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nichiren-123
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Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm

Ok, I'm confused about the different worldviews in the three sutra's of lotus, diamond (i.e. wisdom) and flower garland sutra's?
My understanding is that:

So the lotus sutra teaches the Buddha is eternal

The wisdom sutra teaches emptiness and non-duality

Flower garland sutra teaches interpenetration.

How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm
Ok, I'm confused about the different worldviews in the three sutra's of lotus, diamond (i.e. wisdom) and flower garland sutra's?
My understanding is that:

So the lotus sutra teaches the Buddha is eternal
No, the Lotus Sutra teaches that Shakyamuni Buddha has a really, really, really long (but finite) lifespan. There are some traditions that interpret this long but finite lifespan as eternal. Interpretations are debatable.
The wisdom sutra teaches emptiness and non-duality

Flower garland sutra teaches interpenetration.
What's the difference between emptiness and interpenetration?
How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?
Depends who you ask.

Have you read these sutras you are asking about?

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:59 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm
Ok, I'm confused about the different worldviews in the three sutra's of lotus, diamond (i.e. wisdom) and flower garland sutra's?
My understanding is that:

So the lotus sutra teaches the Buddha is eternal
No, the Lotus Sutra teaches that Shakyamuni Buddha has a really, really, really long (but finite) lifespan. There are some traditions that interpret this long but finite lifespan as eternal. Interpretations are debatable.
The wisdom sutra teaches emptiness and non-duality

Flower garland sutra teaches interpenetration.
What's the difference between emptiness and interpenetration?
How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?
Depends who you ask.

Have you read these sutras you are asking about?
I've read the diamond sutra and synopses of the other two. I don't have time to read them. The LS is 500 odd pages and the FG is over 1000

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Malcolm
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:09 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:59 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm
Ok, I'm confused about the different worldviews in the three sutra's of lotus, diamond (i.e. wisdom) and flower garland sutra's?
My understanding is that:

So the lotus sutra teaches the Buddha is eternal
No, the Lotus Sutra teaches that Shakyamuni Buddha has a really, really, really long (but finite) lifespan. There are some traditions that interpret this long but finite lifespan as eternal. Interpretations are debatable.
The wisdom sutra teaches emptiness and non-duality

Flower garland sutra teaches interpenetration.
What's the difference between emptiness and interpenetration?
How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?
Depends who you ask.

Have you read these sutras you are asking about?
I've read the diamond sutra and synopses of the other two. I don't have time to read them. The LS is 500 odd pages and the FG is over 1000

If you don’t read them, how can you even begin to understand them. BTW, you will not find the doctrine of interpenetration in the actual words of the Avatamska
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

nichiren-123
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:09 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:59 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm


No, the Lotus Sutra teaches that Shakyamuni Buddha has a really, really, really long (but finite) lifespan. There are some traditions that interpret this long but finite lifespan as eternal. Interpretations are debatable.



What's the difference between emptiness and interpenetration?



Depends who you ask.

Have you read these sutras you are asking about?
I've read the diamond sutra and synopses of the other two. I don't have time to read them. The LS is 500 odd pages and the FG is over 1000

If you don’t read them, how can you even begin to understand them. BTW, you will not find the doctrine of interpenetration in the actual words of the Avatamska
How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
Commentaries have been written on these sutra's that get to the heart of the matter in a much easier format to digest...

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:20 pm

If your translation of the Lotus Sutra is 500 pages long, it will take you 100 days to read it at the pace of 5 pages per day. That's very do-able for a busy person (ask me how I know).

It goes better if you read it out loud.

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
Commentaries have been written on these sutra's that get to the heart of the matter in a much easier format to digest...
Then read some reliable commentaries. Abhidharma is good stuff.

Having a teacher guide you through this material is really indispensable. At a minimum, you save time and effort.

nichiren-123
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
Commentaries have been written on these sutra's that get to the heart of the matter in a much easier format to digest...
Then read some reliable commentaries. Abhidharma is good stuff.

Having a teacher guide you through this material is really indispensable. At a minimum, you save time and effort.
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:49 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?
Not at all. On the one hand, you can take Madhyamaka as a different layer of teachings. On the other hand, not all abhidharma interpretations fall within the problematic points that Nagarjuna argued against.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:11 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm
How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?
Question: "I am not going to ask you how to negate one level through another level. But how do you not negate one level, if not through another?"
Answer: "Yesterday I planted the eggplant, today the winter melon."
(Muzhou Daoming, T51n2076p291b21-23, tr from Original Teachings of Ch'an Buddhism, p 109)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:09 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:59 pm


I've read the diamond sutra and synopses of the other two. I don't have time to read them. The LS is 500 odd pages and the FG is over 1000

If you don’t read them, how can you even begin to understand them. BTW, you will not find the doctrine of interpenetration in the actual words of the Avatamska
How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
You will have to take it slowly, and read the Lotus, for example, in multiple English translations if you do not read Sanskrit, Chinese, or Tibetan. You will have to build your knowledge base carefully, over time, so you have a full understanding of the texts you study.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:48 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
Commentaries have been written on these sutra's that get to the heart of the matter in a much easier format to digest...
Then read some reliable commentaries. Abhidharma is good stuff.

Having a teacher guide you through this material is really indispensable. At a minimum, you save time and effort.
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?
No. Some wrongs views held by śrāvaka schools about Abhidharma were demolished by Nāgārjuna; but not Abhidharma itself.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

DGA
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:01 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

How am I supposed to understand a 2000 year old text, written in an ancient language, full of Buddhist cosmology I don't understand?
Commentaries have been written on these sutra's that get to the heart of the matter in a much easier format to digest...
Then read some reliable commentaries. Abhidharma is good stuff.

Having a teacher guide you through this material is really indispensable. At a minimum, you save time and effort.
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?
I agree with Astus and Malcolm that this isn't the case. But assume it is: why not read Nagarjuna?

nichiren-123
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:37 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:01 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm


Then read some reliable commentaries. Abhidharma is good stuff.

Having a teacher guide you through this material is really indispensable. At a minimum, you save time and effort.
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?
I agree with Astus and Malcolm that this isn't the case. But assume it is: why not read Nagarjuna?
I believe I can learn allot more allot quicker reading commentaries, synopses and overviews than just reading the original text. I'm sure there comes a point where I need to study the original text to learn more but I don't think I've reached that point.

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:13 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:37 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:01 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:23 pm

I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?
I agree with Astus and Malcolm that this isn't the case. But assume it is: why not read Nagarjuna?
I believe I can learn allot more allot quicker reading commentaries, synopses and overviews than just reading the original text. I'm sure there comes a point where I need to study the original text to learn more but I don't think I've reached that point.
The problem, IMO, is when you read accessible modern commentaries, you become beholden to the consensus of the "academy" with regards to X or Y. The "academy" is largely comprised of non-Buddhist Buddhologists whose principle goal is to publish literature, not spread the dharma.

This is intersecting with the unwieldy post I am still making for your last thread, on Tiāntāi & Madhyamaka.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by rory » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Here is a scholarly article on Tiantai for the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy by Brook Ziporyn, Professor of Chinese Religion at University of Chicago Divinity School,
Traditional Buddhism gives a rather commonsensical account of sentient experience: every moment of sentient experience is a sensory apparatus encountering an object, giving rise thereby to a particular moment of contentful awareness. But in the Tiantai view, each of these three—sense organ, object, this moment of consciousness—is itself the Absolute, the entirety of reality, expressed without remainder in the peculiar temporary form of sense organ, of object, of this consciousness. Hence each moment of every being’s experience is redescribed, to paraphrase a canonical early Tiantai work, as follows:

The absolute totality encounters the absolute totality, and the result is the arising of the absolute totality. (法界對法界起法界)

The Absolute, the whole of reality, is one and eternal, always the same and omnipresent, but it is also the kind of whole that divides from itself, encounters itself, arises anew each moment, engenders itself as the transient flux of each unique and individual moment of experience of every sentient being.

How this view is established, and what its consequences are, is what is to be explained in this article.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/
Read his two books: Being and Ambiguity: Philosophical Experiments With Tiantai Buddhism (Open Court, 2004
Evil And/Or/As the Good: Omnicentric Holism, Intersubjectivity and Value Paradox in Tiantai Buddhist Thought (Harvard, 2000)
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Malcolm
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:54 pm

rory wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:48 pm
Here is a scholarly article on Tiantai for the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy by Brook Ziporyn, Professor of Chinese Religion at University of Chicago Divinity School,
Traditional Buddhism gives a rather commonsensical account of sentient experience: every moment of sentient experience is a sensory apparatus encountering an object, giving rise thereby to a particular moment of contentful awareness. But in the Tiantai view, each of these three—sense organ, object, this moment of consciousness—is itself the Absolute, the entirety of reality, expressed without remainder in the peculiar temporary form of sense organ, of object, of this consciousness. Hence each moment of every being’s experience is redescribed, to paraphrase a canonical early Tiantai work, as follows:

The absolute totality encounters the absolute totality, and the result is the arising of the absolute totality. (法界對法界起法界)

The Absolute, the whole of reality, is one and eternal, always the same and omnipresent, but it is also the kind of whole that divides from itself, encounters itself, arises anew each moment, engenders itself as the transient flux of each unique and individual moment of experience of every sentient being.

How this view is established, and what its consequences are, is what is to be explained in this article.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/
Read his two books: Being and Ambiguity: Philosophical Experiments With Tiantai Buddhism (Open Court, 2004
Evil And/Or/As the Good: Omnicentric Holism, Intersubjectivity and Value Paradox in Tiantai Buddhist Thought (Harvard, 2000)
gassho
Rory
This view expressed is not even slightly different than Advaita Vedanta. If this really represents Tientai view, it is completly outside Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:54 pm
rory wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:48 pm
Here is a scholarly article on Tiantai for the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy by Brook Ziporyn, Professor of Chinese Religion at University of Chicago Divinity School,
Traditional Buddhism gives a rather commonsensical account of sentient experience: every moment of sentient experience is a sensory apparatus encountering an object, giving rise thereby to a particular moment of contentful awareness. But in the Tiantai view, each of these three—sense organ, object, this moment of consciousness—is itself the Absolute, the entirety of reality, expressed without remainder in the peculiar temporary form of sense organ, of object, of this consciousness. Hence each moment of every being’s experience is redescribed, to paraphrase a canonical early Tiantai work, as follows:

The absolute totality encounters the absolute totality, and the result is the arising of the absolute totality. (法界對法界起法界)

The Absolute, the whole of reality, is one and eternal, always the same and omnipresent, but it is also the kind of whole that divides from itself, encounters itself, arises anew each moment, engenders itself as the transient flux of each unique and individual moment of experience of every sentient being.

How this view is established, and what its consequences are, is what is to be explained in this article.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/
Read his two books: Being and Ambiguity: Philosophical Experiments With Tiantai Buddhism (Open Court, 2004
Evil And/Or/As the Good: Omnicentric Holism, Intersubjectivity and Value Paradox in Tiantai Buddhist Thought (Harvard, 2000)
gassho
Rory
This view expressed is not even slightly different than Advaita Vedanta. If this really represents Tientai view, it is completly outside Buddhadharma.
This is a rebuttal of Ziporyn from Yasuo Deguchi, Jay L. Garfield, and Graham Priest from a Kyōto University symposium, presented at Smith College in the University of Melbourne & the Central University of Tibetan Studies as well as the City University of New York & Saint Andrew’s University. I have linked to this paper before, but I feel it is nonetheless relevant here:

https://jaygarfield.files.wordpress.com ... iporyn.pdf
DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm
nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm
Ok, I'm confused about the different worldviews in the three sutra's of lotus, diamond (i.e. wisdom) and flower garland sutra's?
My understanding is that:

So the lotus sutra teaches the Buddha is eternal
No, the Lotus Sutra teaches that Shakyamuni Buddha has a really, really, really long (but finite) lifespan. There are some traditions that interpret this long but finite lifespan as eternal. Interpretations are debatable.
I'm going to be the worst Buddhist troll now, my apologies, but IMO this is a legitimate responce.

The tathāgata is eternal, the tathāgata is annihilated, the tathāgata both is eternal and annihilated, the tathāgata neither is eternal nor annihilated, these are four wrong views.

IMO, of course.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

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Queequeg
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:14 am

Yeah, those guys don't get it.

What I get from that is, Ziporyn should probably try and work with another word besides "identify". He goes and coins a few odd terms - local coherence, global incoherence, for instance.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:01 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:14 am
Yeah, those guys don't get it.

What I get from that is, Ziporyn should probably try and work with another word besides "identify". He goes and coins a few odd terms - local coherence, global incoherence, for instance.
For other users, see here this past thread: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=26867&p=420300&hil ... yn#p420300
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

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