Heavens/Hells/Purelands

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Josef »

TrimePema wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:17 pm
Josef wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:12 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:52 am Does the mind exist solely because of the body?
Does body, the speech, or the mind have primacy?
No, and in terms of primacy the mind is most important in terms of practice but all of this is relative and they are not exclusive from one another.
so how do the 6 realms manifest?
Through the karma of sentient beings.

From the Kunzang Monlam:

"The ground of all is uncompounded, and the self-arising great expanse, beyond expression, has neither the name samsara nor nirvana. Realizing just this you are a Buddha;
not realizing this you are a being wandering in samsara.
I pray that all you beings of the three realms may realize the true
meaning of the inexpressible ground."
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Sentient Light »

TrimePema wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:17 pm
so how do the 6 realms manifest?
If there are beings born into the realm, it exists. If there are no beings to perceive that realm, it does not exist. Thus a realm's existence is wholly dependent upon there being a mind capable of perceiving reality in that manner.

source: Abhidharmakosabhasyam
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by TrimePema »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:18 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:17 pm
so how do the 6 realms manifest?
If there are beings born into the realm, it exists. If there are no beings to perceive that realm, it does not exist. Thus a realm's existence is wholly dependent upon there being a mind capable of perceiving reality in that manner.

source: Abhidharmakosabhasyam
So what is the "literally existent" universe "out there" that OP mentions?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

People tend to wonder about Heavens/Hells/Purelands, and figures such as Avalokiteshvara and Majushri,
wondering "are they real?"
But you have to ask, "real...as compared to what? As compared to me and you and our 3D material world?"
and the little problem here is that this assumes a lot of reality about me and you and our 3D material world.
If you consider that everything you think about yourself is already a projection of your own mind,
then whatever you can imagine...what are you really comparing that to?

Some personal thoughts...
The Buddha spoke of six realms.
Does that mean that there are only six? Not necessarily.
But it means that these were the ones that are useful to know about, if knowing about them helps lead people to realization.
There may be all types of beings experiencing all sorts of sufferings beyond those described in the sutras.
Obsessive worry beings, Sexual insecurity beings, whatever.
The problem with the realms is that they are such realistic projections of the mind, full of so many intense distractions,
they make hearing the dharma or practicing the teachings nearly, if not completely impossible.
Likewise, realms may overlap. For example, humans are also a species of ape.
And as humans, we can experience mental states that are characteristic of various realms.
I think the distinction between realms is blurrier and not as clear cut as we assume.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Josef »

TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:17 am
Sentient Light wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:18 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:17 pm
so how do the 6 realms manifest?
If there are beings born into the realm, it exists. If there are no beings to perceive that realm, it does not exist. Thus a realm's existence is wholly dependent upon there being a mind capable of perceiving reality in that manner.

source: Abhidharmakosabhasyam
So what is the "literally existent" universe "out there" that OP mentions?
There is no "literally existent" universe.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by TrimePema »

Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:43 am
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:17 am
Sentient Light wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:18 pm

If there are beings born into the realm, it exists. If there are no beings to perceive that realm, it does not exist. Thus a realm's existence is wholly dependent upon there being a mind capable of perceiving reality in that manner.

source: Abhidharmakosabhasyam
So what is the "literally existent" universe "out there" that OP mentions?
There is no "literally existent" universe.
So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Natan »

The West is a bindu in the back of your skull.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Natan »

“Hells are manifestations of an evil mind.” -Gampopa/Milarepa location is not a consideration.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Josef »

TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 am
Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:43 am
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:17 am

So what is the "literally existent" universe "out there" that OP mentions?
There is no "literally existent" universe.
So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Unlikely, it is probably the case that beings born in pure realms have already realized that there is no literal existence since they have been reborn with this level of purified karmic vision. The pure lands are Dharma worlds, to live in them is to know the dharma and to know the dharma is to know suchness.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by TrimePema »

Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:41 pm
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 am
Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:43 am

There is no "literally existent" universe.
So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Unlikely, it is probably the case that beings born in pure realms have already realized that there is no literal existence since they have been reborn with this level of purified karmic vision. The pure lands are Dharma worlds, to live in them is to know the dharma and to know the dharma is to know suchness.
That's why "literally existent" is in quotes.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by ThreeVows »

Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:41 pm
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 am
Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:43 am

There is no "literally existent" universe.
So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Unlikely, it is probably the case that beings born in pure realms have already realized that there is no literal existence since they have been reborn with this level of purified karmic vision. The pure lands are Dharma worlds, to live in them is to know the dharma and to know the dharma is to know suchness.
In the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa (A Clear Mirror), he recounts a journey to Sukhavati, and he exclaims something like, “I thought that all things had no true existence apart from the mind, but this seems utterly real!”
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Josef »

Seeker12 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:57 am
Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:41 pm
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 am

So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Unlikely, it is probably the case that beings born in pure realms have already realized that there is no literal existence since they have been reborn with this level of purified karmic vision. The pure lands are Dharma worlds, to live in them is to know the dharma and to know the dharma is to know suchness.
In the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa (A Clear Mirror), he recounts a journey to Sukhavati, and he exclaims something like, “I thought that all things had no true existence apart from the mind, but this seems utterly real!”
Key word, "seems". This world also seems very real to us.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Josef »

TrimePema wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:25 am
Josef wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:41 pm
TrimePema wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 am

So, just as this seemingly "literally existent" universe appears/seems to "literally exist," it is just as possible that when it dissolves after death, we may come to see Sukhavati as "literally existent"?
Unlikely, it is probably the case that beings born in pure realms have already realized that there is no literal existence since they have been reborn with this level of purified karmic vision. The pure lands are Dharma worlds, to live in them is to know the dharma and to know the dharma is to know suchness.
That's why "literally existent" is in quotes.
Because that is the language in question here, and the problem at hand.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Sentient Light »

Seeker12 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:57 am In the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa (A Clear Mirror), he recounts a journey to Sukhavati, and he exclaims something like, “I thought that all things had no true existence apart from the mind, but this seems utterly real!”
Do you have any other notes on his descriptions? You can PM me.

I think I've posted about my Pure Land experience after my grandmother passed somewhere in the PL subforum, but I'll reiterate here also that it did seem incredibly real, to the point where comparing it to "waking existence" here made this world seem far more dream-like. I don't know any other way of expressing that. However, the Contemplation of Amitabha Sutra also explicitly mentions when the Buddha is speaking to Queen Vaidehi that he is speaking in imagery that she can understand.

I only saw this one little area, and very briefly because we were quite high above it and... I wasn't really paying attention to the environment and didn't understand what was happening for a long while. But coming away from it, I still felt that the Buddha had just allowed my mind to see and perceive something comprehensible, so trees looked like trees and water looked like water and the clouds--although a different color--looked like clouds, but I am not sure that it looks anything like that to a being actually born there, rather than a, uh.. guest.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by ThreeVows »

Sentient Light wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:53 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:57 am In the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa (A Clear Mirror), he recounts a journey to Sukhavati, and he exclaims something like, “I thought that all things had no true existence apart from the mind, but this seems utterly real!”
Do you have any other notes on his descriptions? You can PM me.

I think I've posted about my Pure Land experience after my grandmother passed somewhere in the PL subforum, but I'll reiterate here also that it did seem incredibly real, to the point where comparing it to "waking existence" here made this world seem far more dream-like. I don't know any other way of expressing that. However, the Contemplation of Amitabha Sutra also explicitly mentions when the Buddha is speaking to Queen Vaidehi that he is speaking in imagery that she can understand.

I only saw this one little area, and very briefly because we were quite high above it and... I wasn't really paying attention to the environment and didn't understand what was happening for a long while. But coming away from it, I still felt that the Buddha had just allowed my mind to see and perceive something comprehensible, so trees looked like trees and water looked like water and the clouds--although a different color--looked like clouds, but I am not sure that it looks anything like that to a being actually born there, rather than a, uh.. guest.
I have the book at home and will try and look. Offhand I don't recall much detail, though it seems in line with what you said about seeming 'more real' than 'waking existence'.

I have heard a story from another person who is quite accomplished, I think, with a Phowa for Amitabha's pure land who almost died and basically went there for a time. I think I have mentioned it to you before on a different forum (if you didn't know who this was before, you probably will after this comment), but he saw a very large form of Amitabha and I think (I may be wrong) he was on his hand or something, and anyway, before he 'came back' to his regular Earth life, he described that he perceived this immense, perfect complexity even down to where there was the appearance of microscopic organisms that essentially kept everything perfect or something like that.

I imagine that when it comes to such experiences, there is an aspect of sort of 'selective perception' in the sense that what one perceives is basically exactly what one needs to perceive for one's particular current circumstance. And that perception may be very different, at least to a degree, from one to the next.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by Sentient Light »

Seeker12 wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:31 pm
I have the book at home and will try and look. Offhand I don't recall much detail, though it seems in line with what you said about seeming 'more real' than 'waking existence'.
I'm curious about any physical descriptions that might square up. Always a little amusing to me.
but he saw a very large form of Amitabha and I think (I may be wrong) he was on his hand or something
I think that detail is being imported from my story, unless we both sat on his hand (and yes, I've known who you are).
I imagine that when it comes to such experiences, there is an aspect of sort of 'selective perception' in the sense that what one perceives is basically exactly what one needs to perceive for one's particular current circumstance. And that perception may be very different, at least to a degree, from one to the next.
Yes, I would think so. But the first person I told about this experience, aside from my family, is a member of this forum, and immediately sent me an excerpt of a telling of Honen's death, which I'd never seen before, because many of the unique details of the experience measured up. The commonalities I think are very interesting.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Heavens/Hells/Purelands

Post by ThreeVows »

Sentient Light wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:46 pm The commonalities I think are very interesting.
Indeed. And for what it's worth, when I have heard stories such as these, there's a sort of 'flavor' or 'scent' that comes with them, as if there is a certain field of blessing that one can perceive with the mind or the body in a sort of subtle manner, and the 'scent' seems essentially exactly the same.

FWIW.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”