Heavens/Hells/Purelands

[ford_truckin]

Are these said to be literal places somewhere out there in the universe?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Geographic locations? Not usually, realms that can be experienced and appear ' real' to the beings within them, yes.

[Sentient Light]

Is the animal realm a literal place out there, or is it just here?

The heavens are here too; they are not other locations. Beings perceive reality the way that their minds have been conditioned to perceive it, in accordance to their past karma, but all the realms can make up a single world system.

Most pure lands too are also not different from the environment of the beings inhabiting there. Sakyamuni's Pure Land was part of Earth, said to be Vulture's Peak. Pure Lands exist as 'fields' emanating from Buddhas, a change in the environment -- and other beings' experiences of the environment -- by virtue of the presence of an awakened being. Certain Pure Lands, like Amitabha's, are unique however in that they are not samsaric and thus have no location at all.

[Thomas Amundsen]

Certain Pure Lands, like Amitabha's, are unique however in that they are not samsaric and thus have no location at all.

i.e., pure buddhafields vs. impure buddhafields.

I think we discussed this before and you said that they don't exactly have no location at all? For example, Sukhavati is in the western direction. I'm not sure if I understood your point, but can you go over that again?

[Sentient Light]

I think we discussed this before and you said that they don't exactly have no location at all? For example, Sukhavati is in the western direction. I'm not sure if I understood your point, but can you go over that again?

What direction is west, exactly?

I think having a direction to direct our minds is useful. So to practice on Amitabha, we direct ourselves westwardly, which effectively means we are always facing in the direction that the Earth rotates into. However, from the perspective of just even the moon--not even a more distant object--that "westward" direction would really be any 'direction' in 360 degrees along a single plane.

I think saying "no location" may have been on the extreme end, but I do not consider Sukhavati to be within the domain of spacetime, because spacetime is relative. But there is a direction relative to us, no matter where we are, where we can direct our minds when contemplating the splendors of Sukhavati. But given that there is no such thing as 'west' in any way that is not intraplanetary, I would have to argue that saying any world is 'west' of this one in a literal manner must just be non-sense/gibberish.

[Aryjna]

Are these said to be literal places somewhere out there in the universe?

Yes, but not in this material world that we see as humans who live on Earth. So they exist, but you cannot travel there with a space-ship while in human form. This world is an illusion in any case, humans perceive it as they do because of their karma etc., and in the same way the heavens and hells exist.

[Admin_PC]

What direction is west, exactly?

I've thought about this a lot over the years - about what they're trying to mean by saying "in the west". To be frank, I agree with Sentient Light here, that the direction becomes nonsense in an ever-changing universe. This may put me at odds with Honen, but nowhere do the sutras say one can reach the Pure Land via traveling, a spaceship, or any other means without the help of a Buddha. Honen's "simplified presentation" actually makes things harder to digest, so I'd rather disregard it.

When looking at what the sutras say, I think "the west" may have been a word that had loaded meaning. For example, from the Wisdom Pubs interview with Malcolm we heard that China's "Bodhidharma sat facing the wall for 9 years" was translated into Tibetan at the time as "Bodhidharma sat facing reality for 9 years". There's a good chance "the wall" was an old Chinese metaphor or euphemism for "reality".

Applying this idea to "the western direction", things get a little interesting. It's the direction of the sunset. It's the direction the Buddha faced when he died. In China, the west becomes representative of Indic culture - but I think it doesn't apply here due to the Indic origin of the texts. We know that in some Indic sources the west signified death, or postmortem experience. It was called the undying oxcart direction in some Indic sources. I have a feeling it may mean the direction of future lives/deaths, death being significant as Sukhavati is a postmortem destination.

If we take "the west" being a metaphor for "the future" and say "(in the future) beyond 100,000 koti Buddha Lands (ie Dharma Dispensations or rebirth in various worlds) from here (this life) there's a Buddha (ie that you will become)", you start having a very strong scriptural basis for "Self Nature Amitabha" claims. Of course, when you piece together the various Pure Land sutras, the issue gets a bit more complicated.

From the Visualization Sutra:

Then the World-Honored One told Vaidehī, “Do you know now? Amitāyus Buddha is not far from here. You should think of and visualize that land formed by pure karma. I now will explicate it to you with analogies and thereby enable those ordinary beings of the future who will do pure karmas to be reborn in the Western Land of Ultimate Bliss.

also:

The Buddha told Ānanda and Vaidehī, “After achieving this vision, one should next visualize that Buddha. Why? A Buddha-Tathāgata’s body is the dharma realm, which pervades the thinking mind of all sentient beings. Therefore, when one visualizes a Buddha, one’s mind has a Buddha’s thirty-two physical marks and eighty excellent characteristics. The mind forms a Buddha, and the mind is the Buddha. The ocean of Saṁbuddhas is formed by one’s thinking mind. Therefore, one should single-mindedly focus on and visualize that Buddha, the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak-Saṁbuddha.

also:

When his life is ending, he will see a golden lotus flower appearing before him like the sun.

“In the instant of a thought, he will be reborn in the Land of Ultimate Bliss.

There's a whole section of Chapter 2 of the Pratyutpanna:

The Buddha told Bhadrapāla, “One who trains in this way will attain the samādhi in which present Buddhas all stand before one. If, among bhikṣus, bhikṣuṇīs, upāsakas, and upāsikās, there are those who want to train according to this Dharma, they should fully observe their precepts and live alone in a place to think of Amitābha Buddha, who now is in the west. According to the teachings heard, one should also think of His land called Sukhāvatī, which is ten million koṭi Buddha Lands away from here. One should single-mindedly contemplate for one day and one night, or even seven days and seven nights. After the seventh day, one will see Him. By analogy, one sees things in a dream, not knowing whether it is day or night, indoors or outdoors, and one’s sight is impervious to darkness or obstructions.

“Bhadrapāla, Bodhisattvas should do this contemplation. Then huge mountains, Sumeru Mountains, and dark places in the intervening Buddha Lands will all fall away, not posing any obstruction. These Bodhisattvas will see across without having the God-eye, hear across without having the God-ear, and travel to that Buddha Land without possessing transcendental powers. It is not that they have died here and been reborn there, but that they can sit here and see everything there.

“As an analogy, a man hears that in the kingdom of Vaiśālī lives a prostitute named Sumanā; a second man hears of a prostitute called Āmrapālī; and a third man hears that Utpalavarṇā has become a prostitute. These three men have never seen those three women, but they have heard of them and their lust is ignited. They all live in Rājagṛha, and they have lustful thoughts concurrently. Each of them goes, in a dream, to the woman he thinks of and spends the night with her. When they wake up, they all remember their own dreams.”

The Buddha told Bhadrapāla, “The three women I have mentioned serve as an analogy. You may use this story to expound the sūtras, enabling others to unfold their wisdom so that they will arrive at the Ground of No Regress on the unsurpassed true Way. When they eventually attain Buddhahood, they all will be called Superb Enlightenment.”

The Buddha said, “Bodhisattvas in this land can see Amitābha Buddha by thinking intently only of Him. When they see Him, they can ask, ‘What Dharma should I uphold in order to be reborn in Your land?’ Amitābha Buddha will reply, ‘Those who wish to be reborn in my land should think of my name. If they can continue without rest, they will succeed in being reborn here.’”

The Buddha said, “Because of intent thinking, one will be reborn there. One should always think of Amitābha Buddha’s body with the thirty-two physical marks and the eighty excellent characteristics, unequaled in its majesty, radiating vast bright light to illuminate everywhere. He teaches, in the assembly of Bodhisattvas and bhikṣus, that dharmas [in true reality] are empty and, therefore, indestructible. Why? Because indestructible are all dharmas, such as form, pain, itch, thinking, perception, birth, death, consciousness, spirit, earth, water, fire, wind, the human world, and the heaven world, including Great Brahma Heaven. By thinking of a Buddha, one attains the Samādhi of Emptiness.”

The Buddha told Bhadrapāla, “Who have attained this Bodhisattva samādhi? My disciple Mahākāśyapa, Indraguṇa Bodhisattva, the god-son Good Virtue, and those who already know this samādhi, have attained it through training. Hence, Bhadrapāla, those who wish to see present Buddhas [in worlds] in the ten directions should think of their lands single-mindedly, without other thoughts. Then they will be able to see them. As an analogy, one travels to a distant land and thinks of family and kin in one’s hometown. In a dream, one returns home, sees one’s family and relatives, and enjoys talking to them. After waking, one tells one’s dream to friends.”

The Buddha said, “If Bodhisattvas hear of a Buddha’s name and wish to see Him, they will be able to see Him by constantly thinking of Him and His land. For example, a bhikṣu visualizes before him the bones of a corpse, turning blue, white, red, or black. The colors are not brought by anyone, but are imagined by his mind. Likewise, by virtue of Buddhas’ awesome spiritual power, Bodhisattvas who skillfully abide in this samādhi can see, as they wish, a Buddha of any land. Why? Because they are able to see Him by virtue of three powers: the power of Buddhas, the power of the samādhi, and the power of their own merit.

“As an analogy, a handsome young man dressed in fine clothes wants to see his own face. He can see his reflection by looking into a hand mirror, pure oil, clear water, or a crystal. Does his reflection come from the outside into the mirror, oil, water, or crystal?”

Bhadrapāla replied, “No, it does not. God of Gods, it is because of the clarity of the mirror, oil, water, or crystal, that the man can see his reflection. His reflection comes from neither the inside [of the medium] nor the outside.”

The Buddha said, “Very good, Bhadrapāla. Because the medium is clear, the reflection is clear. Likewise, if one wishes to see a Buddha, one with a pure mind will be able to see. When one sees Him, one can ask questions, and He will give a reply. Having heard the teachings, one will be exultant and think: ‘Where does this Buddha come from and where am I going? As I think of this Buddha, He comes from nowhere and I am going nowhere. As I think of the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm, these three realms are formed by my mind. I can see what I think of. The mind forms a Buddha for itself to see; the mind is the Buddha mind. As my mind forms a Buddha, my mind is the Buddha; my mind is the Tathāgata; my mind is my body.’

“Although the mind sees a Buddha, the mind neither knows itself nor sees itself. The mind with perceptions is saṁsāra; the mind without perceptions is nirvāṇa. Dharmas as perceived are not something pleasurable. They are empty thoughts, nothing real. This is what Bodhisattvas see as they abide in this samādhi.”

Then the Buddha spoke in verse:

The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself.
The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirvāṇa.
Dharmas are not firm, only founded upon thinking.
Those who see emptiness with this understanding are free from perceptions and expectations.’

So in short (TLDR):
- The Pure Land was formed by the fulfillment of Amitabha's vows as Dharmakara Bodhisattva (pure karma)
- "The west" as a geographical destination is meaningless
- We're able to see the Pure Land like a dream, formed by mind.
- But all dharmas are without essence, like a dream (therefor indestructible), all realms formed by mind.
- Buddha's body is the dharma realm that pervades the minds of sentient beings.
- By visualizing the Buddhas, we are able to see the Buddha (in a call-and-response type fashion)
- The Buddha we visualize endows our mind with Buddha qualities
- It is with the help of the power of the Buddha that we are able to see the Buddha and achieve rebirth in Sukhavati
- All of this is facilitated by mind, not jumping in a rocket ship - no point in looking for physical evidence of Sukhavati

[Sentient Light]

It was called the undying oxcart direction in some Indic sources. I have a feeling it may mean the direction of future lives/deaths, death being significant as Sukhavati is a postmortem destination.

This is exactly my thought -- it is the direction of time as we know it. It would also be the "down" direction on maps of the time (with East being 'oriented' at the top), so the east->west has a lot of connotations of forward movement.. From top to bottom (also how Chinese is read), from morning to night, etc.

[Nosta]

I think that altought Sukhavati cannot be reached be physical means, that doesnt mean that Sukhavati is not real or less "physical" than our reality.
Its a question of karma, I mean its a question of having the lucid and peaceful qualities that will lead you to reborn in a place that really exists, but you must gather the right conditions to achieve it.

I suppose that if Sukhavati is for real, so that means that it is more real and wakefull than our dully and gross lives like 21st century earthlings...

[ThreeVows]

Is the animal realm a literal place out there, or is it just here?

The heavens are here too; they are not other locations. Beings perceive reality the way that their minds have been conditioned to perceive it, in accordance to their past karma, but all the realms can make up a single world system.

Most pure lands too are also not different from the environment of the beings inhabiting there. Sakyamuni's Pure Land was part of Earth, said to be Vulture's Peak. Pure Lands exist as 'fields' emanating from Buddhas, a change in the environment -- and other beings' experiences of the environment -- by virtue of the presence of an awakened being. Certain Pure Lands, like Amitabha's, are unique however in that they are not samsaric and thus have no location at all.

I’ve wondered if the directions have to do with an orientation in relation to the subtle energy system rather than an orientation ‘out there’.

[Admin_PC]

I think that altought Sukhavati cannot be reached be physical means, that doesnt mean that Sukhavati is not real or less "physical" than our reality.

...

I suppose that if Sukhavati is for real, so that means that it is more real and wakefull than our dully and gross lives like 21st century earthlings...

I agree on both fronts. The refreshing pools on Sukhavati feel just as real as pools here, but a hundred times better.

That being said, if you place it in the physical world, you start having a hard time with the idea that it's been around for at least 10 kalpas - ie with no specification if they are 100 year kalpas or eon-long mahakalpas, you have people unable to accept it if it pre-dates the Big Bang. You also have people worried that it'll be affected by the predicted heat death of the universe - limiting the amount of time to train there.

[Nosta]

Its difficult to unify Sukhavati idea with big bang and so on. If we accept that Sukahavati is real, that means (for me) that it is in other dimension, out of this physical Universe.

[Grigoris]

Are these said to be literal places somewhere out there in the universe?

How real and literal is this existence?

[Admin_PC]

Its difficult to unify Sukhavati idea with big bang and so on. If we accept that Sukahavati is real, that means (for me) that it is in other dimension, out of this physical Universe.

Makes sense in the same way that hell realms are not buried in a specific mountain (as is described in certain sutras). Vasubandhu in the kosa already described the beings dishing out the punishment in hell realms as being manifested from mind, yet the beings in those realms definitely feel the blows.

[Wayfarer]

Are these said to be literal places somewhere out there in the universe?

Whatever exists in space and time (= 'out there somewhere') belongs to the 'realm of nama rupa', by definition. And in the Buddhist understanding, the realm of nama rupa is simply one of the five heaps, whereas modern 'empiricism' seems to regard it as the sole source of truth.

So, I don't believe that any of the other realms/dimensions/lands are 'out there somewhere'. Looking 'out there somewhere' is already looking in the wrong place, or rather, looking at it the wrong way.

As far as scientific cosmology is concerned, one point of convergence that I have wondered about it this. There is scientific speculation around that the 'big bang' is actually not unique - that this might be something that has occurred in cycles, with a 'bang' followed by a 'collapse' (or 'Big Crunch' - after all, if it happened once, then why not again?) And that does sound very like the classical Indian cosmological myth, which is that the universe 'expands and contracts through aeons and aeons of kalpas'.

I am sceptical about whether ancient Indian cultures really understood these ideas in any sense other than the mythological or allegorical. But then, Carl Sagan also considered this question:

[Sentient Light]

Its difficult to unify Sukhavati idea with big bang and so on. If we accept that Sukahavati is real, that means (for me) that it is in other dimension, out of this physical Universe.

This recent paper that alleges to solve Dark Energy/Dark Matter by unifying it into a negative mass superfluid that encapsulates galaxies however mathematically does support the idea of a cyclical universe though: https://theconversation.com/bizarre-dar ... sts-107922

It would suggest that dark matter / dark energy were both mathematical errors.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Are these said to be literal places somewhere out there in the universe?

Emanation of the Mind!

[TrimePema]

Does the mind exist solely because of the body?
Does body, the speech, or the mind have primacy?

[Josef]

Does the mind exist solely because of the body?
Does body, the speech, or the mind have primacy?

No, and in terms of primacy the mind is most important in terms of practice but all of this is relative and they are not exclusive from one another.

[TrimePema]

Does the mind exist solely because of the body?
Does body, the speech, or the mind have primacy?

No, and in terms of primacy the mind is most important in terms of practice but all of this is relative and they are not exclusive from one another.

so how do the 6 realms manifest?