Merit needed to see Buddhas

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Malcolm »

Split from viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27705
Grigoris wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pmThe reason I say this is because, in my opinion, he was clearly a realized person,
I never doubted this. But he might be trying to teach us some other lesson than "you guys aren't good enough for the likes of me". ;)
Well, maybe we aren't. After all, this is why Śākyamuni passed on. We justify it as a lesson in impermanence, things like lifespan and so on are inextricably linked with merit. Since a Buddha is beyond karma, etc., their appearance in the world is a function of the merit of living beings in the world, and when that declines, Buddhas do not appear.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pmWell, maybe we aren't. After all, this is why Śākyamuni passed on. We justify it as a lesson in impermanence, things like lifespan and so on are inextricably linked with merit. Since a Buddha is beyond karma, etc., their appearance in the world is a function of the merit of living beings in the world, and when that declines, Buddhas do not appear.
That makes no sense at all. Why would a Buddha appear when sentient beings least need them??? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pmWell, maybe we aren't. After all, this is why Śākyamuni passed on. We justify it as a lesson in impermanence, things like lifespan and so on are inextricably linked with merit. Since a Buddha is beyond karma, etc., their appearance in the world is a function of the merit of living beings in the world, and when that declines, Buddhas do not appear.
That makes no sense at all. Why would a Buddha appear when sentient beings least need them??? :shrug:
Buddhas do not appear when sentient beings have so much merit they do not need them, and when they have so little merit they cannot be helped. We are nearing the lower end of that curve.
User avatar
Jangchup Donden
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Jangchup Donden »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pmWell, maybe we aren't. After all, this is why Śākyamuni passed on. We justify it as a lesson in impermanence, things like lifespan and so on are inextricably linked with merit. Since a Buddha is beyond karma, etc., their appearance in the world is a function of the merit of living beings in the world, and when that declines, Buddhas do not appear.
That makes no sense at all. Why would a Buddha appear when sentient beings least need them??? :shrug:
Buddhas do not appear when sentient beings have so much merit they do not need them, and when they have so little merit they cannot be helped. We are nearing the lower end of that curve.
What would be an example of sentient beings having so much merit they do not need a Buddha? AFAIK every pure realm has at least one.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:10 pm That makes no sense at all. Why would a Buddha appear when sentient beings least need them??? :shrug:
Buddhas do not appear when sentient beings have so much merit they do not need them, and when they have so little merit they cannot be helped. We are nearing the lower end of that curve.
What would be an example of sentient beings having so much merit they do not need a Buddha? AFAIK every pure realm has at least one.
This is referring to our Sahaloka.

Even in Sukhavati, however, in order to actually see Amitabha Buddha for example, one needs sufficient merit. Otherwise, one gets stuck in a lotus and does not even hear the sound of his voice for what would be millions of years passing on the earth.
User avatar
Jangchup Donden
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Jangchup Donden »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:16 pm

Buddhas do not appear when sentient beings have so much merit they do not need them, and when they have so little merit they cannot be helped. We are nearing the lower end of that curve.
What would be an example of sentient beings having so much merit they do not need a Buddha? AFAIK every pure realm has at least one.
This is referring to our Sahaloka.

Even in Sukhavati, however, in order to actually see Amitabha Buddha for example, one needs sufficient merit. Otherwise, one gets stuck in a lotus and does not even hear the sound of his voice for what would be millions of years passing on the earth.
Sure but that's an example of not having enough merit. I'm just failing to fathom a circumstance where you'd have so much merit you wouldn't need to see a Buddha, unless you were one yourself. And in that case you're definitely seeing Buddha(s) because you are one.

I can see some of those in God realms having merit such that they wouldn't be receptive to the Dharma, but maybe that's a lack of the right kind of merit.
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Since motivation of bodhisattvas & buddhas is same - to help as many beings as possible become free of all obscurations & suffering, our merit may have little to do with their appearance. They teach & help devas too, whose types of suffering we would not consider suffering at all. The hell beings, animals and all lower realms are helped by Them, and those creatures have no merit.

Any realm, high, middling or low, has beings in need of bodhisattvas & buddhas. Since They are totally free - why They show up is Their decision. We should just be grateful.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
Jangchup Donden
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Jangchup Donden »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am Since motivation of bodhisattvas & buddhas is same - to help as many beings as possible become free of all obscurations & suffering, our merit may have little to do with their appearance. They teach & help devas too, whose types of suffering we would not consider suffering at all. The hell beings, animals and all lower realms are helped by Them, and those creatures have no merit.

Any realm, high, middling or low, has beings in need of bodhisattvas & buddhas. Since They are totally free - why They show up is Their decision. We should just be grateful.
Well if things were entirely dependent on them we'd all be liberated already. So maybe things on our part have something to do with it as well.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am Since motivation of bodhisattvas & buddhas is same - to help as many beings as possible become free of all obscurations & suffering, our merit may have little to do with their appearance. They teach & help devas too, whose types of suffering we would not consider suffering at all. The hell beings, animals and all lower realms are helped by Them, and those creatures have no merit.

Any realm, high, middling or low, has beings in need of bodhisattvas & buddhas. Since They are totally free - why They show up is Their decision. We should just be grateful.
The reason human beings can obtain Buddhahood and the other five classes cannot is that we humans have just the right mix of suffering and happiness, so we can escape our plight and in the process help others as best we can.
ford_truckin
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 am

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by ford_truckin »

from my readings, buddhas only make an appearance in human flesh once there are no traces of dharma left in the world.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by ThreeVows »

ford_truckin wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 am from my readings, buddhas only make an appearance in human flesh once there are no traces of dharma left in the world.
This is specifically regarding a supreme nirmanakaya such as Shakyamuni, but there are other types of nirmanakaya forms it’s taught.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:21 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 am from my readings, buddhas only make an appearance in human flesh once there are no traces of dharma left in the world.
This is specifically regarding a supreme nirmanakaya such as Shakyamuni, but there are other types of nirmanakaya forms it’s taught.
Yes, and we do not have the merit to see the Buddha in person now...
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Merit needed to see Buddhas

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pm Split from viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27705
Grigoris wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pmThe reason I say this is because, in my opinion, he was clearly a realized person,
I never doubted this. But he might be trying to teach us some other lesson than "you guys aren't good enough for the likes of me". ;)
Well, maybe we aren't. After all, this is why Śākyamuni passed on. We justify it as a lesson in impermanence, things like lifespan and so on are inextricably linked with merit. Since a Buddha is beyond karma, etc., their appearance in the world is a function of the merit of living beings in the world, and when that declines, Buddhas do not appear.
:good:
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”