Vitarkavicāra

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Caoimhghín
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Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:27 pm

On SuttaCentral, as of late, there has been massive and lively debate as to what the dhyānic factors of vitarka and vicāra actually are. Sources being cited range from the Abhidharmakośa to the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra (śrāvakabhūmi section, obv). The dialogue is quite interesting IMO but the debate is spread over tons of different threads. Very messy.

I have something of an idea of what these factors are, but they are largely theoretical, as I have never entered into a dhyāna absorption, and I will be posting some material on the factors shortly (you can beat me to the punch by reading what I will be posting from, Mahāśamathavipaśyanā, yourself, it is published as Clear Serenity Quiet Insight,relevant sections on pages 1410 to 1528).

But before we go about quoting and clipping, what is the consensus? I know there is one. Mahāyāna & Vajrayāna have a particular advantage over practices based on EBT-studies, namely, there is a consensus in Mahāyāna et al, them being actual living traditions as opposed to something people are trying to revive.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:28 pm

Some more quick context, the SuttaCentral debate is between "hard dhyanists" and "soft dhyānists," as usual.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

MiphamFan
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Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:26 am

I went down this rabbit hole a while back.

My own conclusion is that the "sutric" dhyanas as taught by e.g. Leigh Brasington, corresponds much more with the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas as taught in Mahayana. However, there is dissensus even within Mahayana about how hard exactly the first dhyana is.

In the end, like Malcolm said, it has to be based on your own experience.

I found your post : https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... a/11436/18

Malcolm actually disagrees with Wallace's view that the first dhyana involves complete disawareness of the body. I can't find the quote now but he did explain it to me here and said that the first dhyana could be reached in an afternoon.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:01 am

Yes, that thread opens with a fake Malcolm quote, but it was corrected.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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