Vitarkavicāra

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Caoimhghín
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Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín »

On SuttaCentral, as of late, there has been massive and lively debate as to what the dhyānic factors of vitarka and vicāra actually are. Sources being cited range from the Abhidharmakośa to the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra (śrāvakabhūmi section, obv). The dialogue is quite interesting IMO but the debate is spread over tons of different threads. Very messy.

I have something of an idea of what these factors are, but they are largely theoretical, as I have never entered into a dhyāna absorption, and I will be posting some material on the factors shortly (you can beat me to the punch by reading what I will be posting from, Mahāśamathavipaśyanā, yourself, it is published as Clear Serenity Quiet Insight,relevant sections on pages 1410 to 1528).

But before we go about quoting and clipping, what is the consensus? I know there is one. Mahāyāna & Vajrayāna have a particular advantage over practices based on EBT-studies, namely, there is a consensus in Mahāyāna et al, them being actual living traditions as opposed to something people are trying to revive.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín »

Some more quick context, the SuttaCentral debate is between "hard dhyanists" and "soft dhyānists," as usual.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
MiphamFan
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Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by MiphamFan »

I went down this rabbit hole a while back.

My own conclusion is that the "sutric" dhyanas as taught by e.g. Leigh Brasington, corresponds much more with the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas as taught in Mahayana. However, there is dissensus even within Mahayana about how hard exactly the first dhyana is.

In the end, like Malcolm said, it has to be based on your own experience.

I found your post : https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... a/11436/18

Malcolm actually disagrees with Wallace's view that the first dhyana involves complete disawareness of the body. I can't find the quote now but he did explain it to me here and said that the first dhyana could be reached in an afternoon.
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Caoimhghín
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Vitarkavicāra

Post by Caoimhghín »

Yes, that thread opens with a fake Malcolm quote, but it was corrected.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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