The Four Noble Truths are

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Viach
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The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am

Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?

stevie
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:19 am

From my perspective he taught 'The Four Noble Truths' for the benefit of others, to provide guidance.

So the 'Four Noble Truths' are leitmotifs.

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Astus
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Astus » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:42 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
(Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Grigoris
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:22 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
Chicken-Egg.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Queequeg » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:54 pm

The Buddha draws distinctions and explains matters so that others can awaken.

Your question is difficult to answer because there are numerous views that yield different answers.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:05 pm

The idea of these truths are common to many pre-Buddha paths.

Anyone pondering the unsatisfactory nature of life (1), wonders why that is so (2), can the sorrows of life end (3) and if so how (4).

See chapter 8 of the Avatamsaka Sutra for examples of the Four Truths in many other realms.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

Viach
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:22 am
Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
Chicken-Egg.
No. Footsteps-Landscapes (as a result of taking steps).
Details are here:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29452&sid=642cf08f ... d0fb72f2e0

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Grigoris
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:18 pm

Viach wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:55 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:22 am
Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
Chicken-Egg.
No. Footsteps-Landscapes (as a result of taking steps).
Details are here:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29452&sid=642cf08f ... d0fb72f2e0
That is just your opinion.

And since you believe you know the answer: Why are you asking?

PS Quoting yourself to prove your view is rather bad form...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Wayfarer
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:25 pm

The manner in which the four noble truths exist is one of the kinds of questions declared unanswerable by the Buddha, as not being relevant to the path of practice. Such questions were famously compared to 'a poison arrow'.
It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

so the point of the 'four truths' is not to try and ascertain their ontological status, but to act on them.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

Viach
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:58 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:25 pm
The manner in which the four noble truths exist is one of the kinds of questions declared unanswerable by the Buddha, as not being relevant to the path of practice.
No. They are not included in the list of these issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_unanswered_questions

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Wayfarer
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:07 am

But it’s a question of a similar kind. It’s metaphysical speculation.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

bridif1
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by bridif1 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:35 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
Hi Viach!

Why not both?
As far as we know, if we are to believe the Nikayas/Agamas, the Buddha discovered them by himself and practice them through the rest of his life.
That was the breakthrough that differentiated the Buddha from the rest of his contemporary ascetic fellows.

Kind regards!

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by haha » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:38 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
While teaching, there are few things to be considered: when, where, whom, what, and why. Four Noble Truths were taught to five ascetics. Remember that they became Arhant only after listening to discourse on Anatma.

Buddha taught dharma to other based on this(i.e. just one aspect):
"What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sakyamuni greatest discovery is pratityasamutpada, and which the past Buddhas also discovered and got awaken. So, Four Noble Truths are based on dependent arising theory.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by haha » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:39 am

“It’s possible that wanderers of other sects might say, ‘But why, friends, is this undeclared by Gotama the contemplative?’ The wanderers of other sects who say this should be told, ‘Friends, it isn’t connected with the goal, isn’t connected with the Dhamma, isn’t fundamental to the holy life. It doesn’t lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, unbinding. That’s why it’s undeclared by the Blessed One.’13

“It’s possible that wanderers of other sects might say, ‘But what, friends, is declared by Gotama the contemplative?’ The wanderers of other sects who say this should be told, ‘“This is stress,” is declared by the Blessed One. “This is the origination of stress,” is declared by the Blessed One. “This is the cessation of stress,” is declared by the Blessed One. “This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,” is declared by the Blessed One.’

“It’s possible that wanderers of other sects might say, ‘And why, friends, is this declared by Gotama the contemplative?’ The wanderers of other sects who say this should be told, ‘This is connected with the goal, is connected with the Dhamma, is fundamental to the holy life. It leads to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, unbinding. That’s why it’s declared by the Blessed One.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN29.html
But in other buddhist traditions, what is undeclared is no longer undeclared.

stevie
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:40 am

From my perspective it is thus: How could the Buddha provide guidance based on conventional language for those lost in the sphere of unease and misery who were yearning for soteriological truth(s) because their experiential sphere of being was torn by the apparent dichotomies of putatively contradicting truths and non-truths/falsities? Only through teaching '(noble) truths'.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:50 am

I live on a plain and in the distance there is a mountain, so I decide to walk to the mountain.

During my journey I get lost a couple of times, have to back track because I end up in dead ends, or non-traversable terrain, but in the end I finally arrive at the mountain.

To help other people I decide to make a map outlining the most direct route that I found.

----

The Buddha arrived at enlightenment after countless lifetimes of practicing, of accumulating wisdom and merit and then taught the Four Noble Truths to help us arrive at enlightenment.

Chicken and egg.

----

And, in the Milindpanha, we find the following statement:
“It was said by the Blessed One, ‘The Tathàgata is the
discoverer of a way that was unknown.’ 163 Yet he also said,
‘Now I perceived, O monks, the ancient path along which
the previous Buddhas walked.’164 This too is a double edged problem.”
“It was because the path shown by previous Buddhas
had long since disappeared and was not known by anyone,
man or god, that the Buddha said, ‘The Tathàgata is
the discoverer of a way that was unknown.’ Though that way had
disintegrated, become impassable and lost to view — the
Tathàgata, having gained a thorough knowledge of it, saw
by his eye of wisdom that it was the path used by previous
Buddhas. Therefore he said; ‘Now I perceived, O monks, the
ancient path along which the previous Buddhas walked.’ It
is as when a man clears the jungle and sets free a piece of
land it is called his land, though he did not make the land.”

163. S. iii. 66; cf. S. i. 190.
164. i.e. The Path leading to Nibbàna. S. ii. 105.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Viach
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:49 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:07 am
But it’s a question of a similar kind. It’s metaphysical speculation.
Is Footsteps-Landscapes metaphysical speculation? Are you serious? In my opinion, this is an obvious principle that defines our daily life.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Bristollad » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:38 pm

Viach wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:49 pm
Is Footsteps-Landscapes metaphysical speculation? Are you serious? In my opinion, this is an obvious principle that defines our daily life.
Perhaps. For me it is but one metaphor that can be applied that it seems you like. Remember, the 4 noble truths are so-called because they appear true only to Arya (noble) beings, ones who see reality as it is. Until you're an Arya being, the 4 noble truths must be approached through simile, metaphor, logic and reasoning, convention. Are you really so sure that there are no logical connections between dissatifaction and the cause of dissatisfaction, between ending of dissatisfaction and the path that leads to the ending of dissatisfaction, between the cause of dissatisfaction and the path that leads to the ending of dissatisfaction, between dissatisfaction and the ending of dissatisfaction?

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm

Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas. The sutta called the Ancient City is too long, but here is the final part:
So too, monks, I saw the ancient path, the ancient road traveled by the Perfectly Enlightened Ones of the past. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. I followed that path and by doing so I have directly known aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. I have directly known birth ... existence ... clinging ... craving ... feeling ... contact... the six sense bases ... name-and-form ... consciousness ... volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. Having directly known them, I have explained them to the monks, the nuns, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers. This spiritual life, monks, has become successful and prosperous, extended, popular, widespread, well proclaimed among devas and humans.
(SN 12:65; II104-7)

[Four Truths in bold type] If one has Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation the sutta is on pp 601-4
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

stevie
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm
Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas.
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.

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