18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

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Si-va-kon
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18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Si-va-kon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm

Hello
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
I believe that samjna is manovidjnana, and vedana is a collection of five sensual vijnans
Thank you

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Grigoris
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:07 pm

Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
Hello
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
I believe that samjna is manovidjnana, and vedana is a collection of five sensual vijnans
Thank you
I would say that they are all forms or categories of mind-consciousness (Skt. mano-vijñanadhātu).

That is my guess.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Si-va-kon
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:49 pm
Location: Central Asia

Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Si-va-kon » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:07 pm
Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
Hello
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
I believe that samjna is manovidjnana, and vedana is a collection of five sensual vijnans
Thank you
I would say that they are all forms or categories of mind-consciousness (Skt. mano-vijñanadhātu).

That is my guess.
Not only, all seven types of consciousness (cacsurvijnana..., manendriya and manovidjnana) are modifications of the eighth - alayavijnana

haha
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by haha » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:36 am

Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
Hello
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
I believe that samjna is manovidjnana, and vedana is a collection of five sensual vijnans
Thank you
It is different categorization. It does not include them: Vedana, Samjna, and Samskara. But they can be included. (just my opinion)

First categorization is Nama and Rupa. Nama has four aspects: Vedana, Samjna, Samskara, and Vijnana.
Vedana has three characters: sukha, duhkha, and aduhkha-asukha.
Whatever gets the sign or characteristic is Samjna: yellow or red, long or short, etc.
First chapter from first part of Abhidharmasamucaya would be useful. One can meditate to distinguish them.
Abhidharmasamucaya

Si-va-kon
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Si-va-kon » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:54 am

Image
haha wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:36 am
Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
Hello
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
I believe that samjna is manovidjnana, and vedana is a collection of five sensual vijnans
Thank you
"It is different categorization. It does not include them: Vedana, Samjna, and Samskara. But they can be included. (just my opinion)"

First categorization is Nama and Rupa. Nama has four aspects: Vedana, Samjna, Samskara, and Vijnana.
Vedana has three characters: sukha, duhkha, and aduhkha-asukha.
Whatever gets the sign or characteristic is Samjna: yellow or red, long or short, etc.
First chapter from first part of Abhidharmasamucaya would be useful. One can meditate to distinguish them.
Abhidharmasamucaya
"The object of this study is to demonstrate that the conjunction and disjunction of things such as feeling (vedana) are only in the mind (cittamatra)"(Preface to the AS)

caksurvijnana perceives blue without defining the term "blue."
kayavijnana detects the heat of a fire without knowing the term "fire" (or "heat")

And all these sensations already carry a rating (nice - unpleasant - neutral)
Sometimes we (instinctively) withdraw a hand from the hot, only in the next moments understanding what happened, i.e. “unpleasantly” has already been perceived by us before the stage of the formation of cognitions about it.
Therefore, it is logical to attribute vedana to these five sensory consciousnesses.

I recently saw a picture on the network and suspect that there is an error in the diagram shown.

Therefore, I would like to reassure our reasoning with a canonical quote.
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Grigoris
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:32 am

I can see how II, III and IV can be objects of conscious perception, when one contemplates them. At the same time though they would seem to be functions of mind-consciousness, since they influence it.

It is a tricky one and I have to admit I do not know the answer.

Where did you find the diagram?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Si-va-kon
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:49 pm
Location: Central Asia

Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Si-va-kon » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:57 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:32 am
I can see how II, III and IV can be objects of conscious perception, when one contemplates them. At the same time though they would seem to be functions of mind-consciousness, since they influence it.

It is a tricky one and I have to admit I do not know the answer.

Where did you find the diagram?
Stored in the computer for the second year :)
Unfortunately, I can’t remember where I got it from, just sometimes I enter terms in the search and save the pictures I like, sometimes without even looking at what site they are from.

I think that it is wrong and would like to correct mistakes

Consciousness of the eye (caksurvijnana) perceives (vedana) blue, and in the subsequent moments the judgment “This is blue” (samjna) is synthesized. And "good-bad-neutral" exists already after the contact of the indriya with the object, before the emergence of logical definitions of the general properties of a certain object (synthesized by discriminating reason) of the object.

Vasubandhu clarifies "samjna nimitta udgrahana"
I know that the five sensual consciousnesses "grasp" instant characteristics, individual signs (svalaksana), and in the subsequent chain of thought points a judgment is synthesized, common signs (samanya-laksana) are defined, which are nirvikalpaka and savikalpaka, respectively.

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Astus
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Astus » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 am

Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
The dharmadhatu.

'These three skandhas, with avijnapti and unconditioned things, are the dharmayatana, the dharmadhatu.'
(AKB 1.15b-d, vol 1, p 73, tr Pruden)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Si-va-kon
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Location: Central Asia

Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by Si-va-kon » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:11 pm

Astus wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 am
Si-va-kon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 pm
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.
The dharmadhatu.

'These three skandhas, with avijnapti and unconditioned things, are the dharmayatana, the dharmadhatu.'
(AKB 1.15b-d, vol 1, p 73, tr Pruden)
Thanks, Astus.

It turns out that the scheme is true.

haha
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Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana

Post by haha » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:44 pm

It may be useful here.
Vedanaskandha is the threefold mode of feeling or experiencing sensation which is painful, pleasant, neither-painful-nor-pleasant. One should distinguish six classes of sensations: those which arise from the contact of the five material organs, the organ of sight, etc., with their object; and those which arise from contact with the mental organ and following).

Pruden, Leo M., Abhidharmakosabhasyam

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