The same thing four times

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Viach
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The same thing four times

Post by Viach » Wed May 01, 2019 5:10 am

What is the point of saying the same thing four times? Why it is impossible to be limited only to the first statement?
"Form is nothing more than emptiness, emptiness is nothing more than Form. Form is exactly emptiness, and emptiness is exactly Form."( Heart Sūtra )

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Supramundane
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Supramundane » Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Avoidance of doubt

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Vasana
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Vasana » Wed May 01, 2019 8:11 am

It's a lot more subtle than that. It also depends on your translation. We can easily start to understand intellectually after some explanation that form is empty but it's considerably more difficultt to see that the emptines we are speaking of is also 'present' in it's own absence of inherent nature, as displayed by sensory and mental forms and appearances . It becomes very easy to have a mental concept of emptiness and then try to 'stick' or superimpose this idea of emptiness on to the actually-empty sensory forms or thoughts and emotions we experience. It' s difficult to experience and cognise them directly as empty-forms from the offset hence the distinction.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: The same thing four times

Post by £$&^@ » Wed May 01, 2019 9:23 am

AS CTR said." 'Form is Emptiness' we can just about get our heads around..even if it remains a concept to us, not a realisation. But Emptiness is form..that takes a lifetime of practice".
My name is Simon John Ellis. Husband of a Buddhist wife. Father of a Buddhist son. And I will have Enlightenment in this life or the next.

( Or the next..or the next....)

Viach
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Viach » Wed May 01, 2019 9:57 am

My guess is that these four statements are not four logically related statements, but a description of either one nondual experience (tested by the Buddha) or four descriptions of four consecutive nondual experiences.

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Vasana
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Vasana » Wed May 01, 2019 11:06 am

Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:57 am
My guess is that these four statements are not four logically related statements, but a description of either one nondual experience (tested by the Buddha) or four descriptions of four consecutive nondual experiences.
They are logically related and they are also descriptions of how reality is experientially known and experienced by Buddhas and bodhisattvas to some degree.
'Form is emptiness' refutes an eternalist view and 'emptiness is form' negates a nihilist view. 'Form is emptiness' negates the view of there being an absolute existence of any phenomena while 'emptiness is form' negates a view of any phenomena's absolute non-existence.

I reccomend listening /watching/reading commentaries on these from the Dalai Lama or the Karmapa perhaps. There is also the work of Nagarjuna and subsequent commentaries but these can be a bit of a headspin which is useful for some people but not everyone, at least not right away.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Viach
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Viach » Wed May 01, 2019 12:32 pm

Vasana wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:06 am
Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:57 am
My guess is that these four statements are not four logically related statements, but a description of either one nondual experience (tested by the Buddha) or four descriptions of four consecutive nondual experiences.
They are logically related and they are also descriptions of how reality is experientially known and experienced by Buddhas and bodhisattvas to some degree.
'Form is emptiness' refutes an eternalist view and 'emptiness is form' negates a nihilist view. 'Form is emptiness' negates the view of there being an absolute existence of any phenomena while 'emptiness is form' negates a view of any phenomena's absolute non-existence.

I reccomend listening /watching/reading commentaries on these from the Dalai Lama or the Karmapa perhaps. There is also the work of Nagarjuna and subsequent commentaries but these can be a bit of a headspin which is useful for some people but not everyone, at least not right away.
Logic is dual, therefore non-dual (emptiness) cannot in principle be logically described for a person who does not have such non-dual experience. Therefore, this is a description that can give only a hint of tested experience, and not a logical explanation of emptiness.

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Vasana
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Vasana » Wed May 01, 2019 1:51 pm

Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:32 pm
Vasana wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:06 am
Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:57 am
My guess is that these four statements are not four logically related statements, but a description of either one nondual experience (tested by the Buddha) or four descriptions of four consecutive nondual experiences.
They are logically related and they are also descriptions of how reality is experientially known and experienced by Buddhas and bodhisattvas to some degree.
'Form is emptiness' refutes an eternalist view and 'emptiness is form' negates a nihilist view. 'Form is emptiness' negates the view of there being an absolute existence of any phenomena while 'emptiness is form' negates a view of any phenomena's absolute non-existence.

I reccomend listening /watching/reading commentaries on these from the Dalai Lama or the Karmapa perhaps. There is also the work of Nagarjuna and subsequent commentaries but these can be a bit of a headspin which is useful for some people but not everyone, at least not right away.
Logic is dual, therefore non-dual (emptiness) cannot in principle be logically described for a person who does not have such non-dual experience. Therefore, this is a description that can give only a hint of tested experience, and not a logical explanation of emptiness.
Is it just the part in bold you have a problem with?

The point of shunyata/ middle way logic is precisely to exhaust the possibilities of the dualistic mind so one can recognise and sustain that prajna /valid cognition ( pratyakṣa).*

If you are interested in logic then maybe the logic of the middle way is right for you since Nagarjunas work is an exposition of the Prajnaparamita sutras like the heart sutra In the o.p. The logic of the4 fold negation** isn't a proposition or description but a means to eradicate all possible wrong views. With the absence of wrong views (existence, non existence, both and neither) then there can be right view/valid cognition.

The point of proper conceptual analysis isn't to describe non dual reality but to enable you to realize nondual wisdom and compassion directly. With the right conceptual investigation you are able to interupt the habitual dualistic consiousness which allows for direct, non-dual, valid cognitions to occur more readily.

** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetralemma

* https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pramana
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Grigoris
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 01, 2019 3:13 pm

Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:32 pm
Logic is dual, therefore non-dual (emptiness) cannot in principle be logically described for a person who does not have such non-dual experience.
Of course it can: Phenomena do not have an inherent, or essential, existence but arise in dependence on causes and conditions. When these causes and conditions are not present the phenomenon ceases to exist.

Pretty bloody simple actually. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The same thing four times

Post by SunWuKong » Wed May 01, 2019 3:34 pm

Viach wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:10 am
What is the point of saying the same thing four times? Why it is impossible to be limited only to the first statement?
"Form is nothing more than emptiness, emptiness is nothing more than Form. Form is exactly emptiness, and emptiness is exactly Form."( Heart Sūtra )
The first statement says form is emptiness. But that says very little about emptiness, so it is qualified by emptiness being "nothing more" than form, e.g. yes form is emptiness, but (for example) emptiness is not any kind of absolute in regards to form. Then the statement is repeated for emphasis being on "exactly" So if you were a surgery student and someone told you the location of the pancreas, or the pituitary, but then snapped their fingers and repeated where with the word "exactly" - you better be listening. That's why.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: The same thing four times

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat May 04, 2019 10:41 pm

imo, in sutras things are repeated over and over to apprehend the meaning and not what we would like it to mean. it has to do with our cognition and overcome our own idea of what we ear.

if you let me adventure a bit, there ir a human key-condition in such things. you guide someone beyhond doubt, not pass the doubt, not before, and not in the middle. doubt is in your ideas only!
"Don't profess a view you haven't realized!
Since the view is devoid of viewing, mind essence is an expanse of great emptiness.
Since the meditation is without meditating, leave your individual experience free from fixation.
Since the conduct is without acting, it is unfabricated naturalness.
Since the fruition is without abandoning or achieving, it is the dharmakaya of great bliss.
These four sentences are words from my heart:
Contradict them and you fail to discover the nature of Ati Yoga."


Guru Padmasambhava.
From "Advice from the Lotus-Born".

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