Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

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zerwe
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Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by zerwe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:44 am

I have been reading and listening to a number of commentaries which detail stories surrounding Ro Lotsawa. Let's just say that in general most portray him in a negative light (this would be kind, to say the least). Most I have been encountering don't explore the motivations behind his seemingly negative actions. One, in particular, is how Ra Lo ends Tarmadote's life and thus ceasing one lineage of a particular transferrence of consciousness practice bestowed upon him by his father Marpa.

Now, I have heard this story before from one of my direct teachers and Ra Lo's motivation was explained at this time. However, I am unable to recall why Ra Lo viewed this transference of consciousness practice lineage as so harmful and necessary to eliminate by killing the lineage holder.

Can anyone here provide the background I am missing?

Additionally, these commentaries don't provide background or Ra Lo's motivation for his killing so many Bodhisattva's. Are there better or more definitive sources out there that let's just say tell the whole story regarding Ra Lo's activities?

Shaun :namaste:

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 am

Have you read his translated Bio, The All-Pervading Melodious Drumbeat? That would be a good place to start.

Wrathful activities are not appropriate to talk about in a Public forum like this.

Suffice it to say though, if the Yogi does not have to capability to transfer the consciousness which has been seperated into the Dharmadhatu (liberate them from suffering) they are not permitted, If someone engages in these activities without proper realization, and a compassionate motivation they will be reborn in the Hell realms and suffer immensely.

At every stage and with every practice, Bodhichitta is the spinal chord of the Vajrayana, otherwise ritual activities are no more than common, misappropriated magic.

zerwe
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by zerwe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 am
Have you read his translated Bio, The All-Pervading Melodious Drumbeat? That would be a good place to start.

Wrathful activities are not appropriate to talk about in a Public forum like this.

Suffice it to say though, if the Yogi does not have to capability to transfer the consciousness which has been seperated into the Dharmadhatu (liberate them from suffering) they are not permitted, If someone engages in these activities without proper realization, and a compassionate motivation they will be reborn in the Hell realms and suffer immensely.

At every stage and with every practice, Bodhichitta is the spinal chord of the Vajrayana, otherwise ritual activities are no more than common, misappropriated magic.
Thanks, I have not read the biography and will check it out once my plate is a little more clear.

I appreciate the sensitive nature of the topic, but it has been given publically as an example of wrathful compassion alongside the story of Shakyamuni (during one of his past lives) when he could see the karma of the ship captain who harbored tremendous ill-will for others.

And, I understand that improper motivation was behind Tarmadote's actions. I just couldn't recall how in his hands the practice had been misappropriated.

'Nuff Said!

Shaun :anjali:

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:42 pm

zerwe wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 am
Have you read his translated Bio, The All-Pervading Melodious Drumbeat? That would be a good place to start.

Wrathful activities are not appropriate to talk about in a Public forum like this.

Suffice it to say though, if the Yogi does not have to capability to transfer the consciousness which has been seperated into the Dharmadhatu (liberate them from suffering) they are not permitted, If someone engages in these activities without proper realization, and a compassionate motivation they will be reborn in the Hell realms and suffer immensely.

At every stage and with every practice, Bodhichitta is the spinal chord of the Vajrayana, otherwise ritual activities are no more than common, misappropriated magic.
Thanks, I have not read the biography and will check it out once my plate is a little more clear.

I appreciate the sensitive nature of the topic, but it has been given publically as an example of wrathful compassion alongside the story of Shakyamuni (during one of his past lives) when he could see the karma of the ship captain who harbored tremendous ill-will for others.

And, I understand that improper motivation was behind Tarmadote's actions. I just couldn't recall how in his hands the practice had been misappropriated.

'Nuff Said!

Shaun :anjali:
I think the Bio definitely goes into the reasoning's for this masters kind of actions.

I haven't heard specifically that Dharma Dode was abusing this technique, although there seemed to be a lot of concern about keeping it a secret transmission because of it's potential for abuse. Just imagine you could enter and impersonate another form.

I am not entirely convinced that this practice has completely disappeared from this earth, it may still be held as a very secret transmission.

It seems that not only Dharma Dode knew how to perform this technique, but also Padampa Sangye was another well known one, he was actually a very handsome man in appearance. However, he knew this technique, and he taught it to his friend, and they were busy practicing it. His friend jealously took advantage and stole his body when he was disembodied. So he desperately entered into the body of a recently deceased ugly old man, and that is why he has the appearance that we are all familiar with.

The whole situation surrounding Marpa's sons is quite sad. They really didn't fulfill their part and increase his activity and further their family lineage after his passing, such a shame.

zerwe
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by zerwe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:48 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:42 pm
zerwe wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 am
Have you read his translated Bio, The All-Pervading Melodious Drumbeat? That would be a good place to start.

Wrathful activities are not appropriate to talk about in a Public forum like this.

Suffice it to say though, if the Yogi does not have to capability to transfer the consciousness which has been seperated into the Dharmadhatu (liberate them from suffering) they are not permitted, If someone engages in these activities without proper realization, and a compassionate motivation they will be reborn in the Hell realms and suffer immensely.

At every stage and with every practice, Bodhichitta is the spinal chord of the Vajrayana, otherwise ritual activities are no more than common, misappropriated magic.
Thanks, I have not read the biography and will check it out once my plate is a little more clear.

I appreciate the sensitive nature of the topic, but it has been given publically as an example of wrathful compassion alongside the story of Shakyamuni (during one of his past lives) when he could see the karma of the ship captain who harbored tremendous ill-will for others.

And, I understand that improper motivation was behind Tarmadote's actions. I just couldn't recall how in his hands the practice had been misappropriated.

'Nuff Said!

Shaun :anjali:

I think the Bio definitely goes into the reasoning's for this masters kind of actions.

I haven't heard specifically that Dharma Dode was abusing this technique, although there seemed to be a lot of concern about keeping it a secret transmission because of it's potential for abuse. Just imagine you could enter and impersonate another form.

I am not entirely convinced that this practice has completely disappeared from this earth, it may still be held as a very secret transmission.

It seems that not only Dharma Dode knew how to perform this technique, but also Padampa Sangye was another well known one, he was actually a very handsome man in appearance. However, he knew this technique, and he taught it to his friend, and they were busy practicing it. His friend jealously took advantage and stole his body when he was disembodied. So he desperately entered into the body of a recently deceased ugly old man, and that is why he has the appearance that we are all familiar with.

The whole situation surrounding Marpa's sons is quite sad. They really didn't fulfill their part and increase his activity and further their family lineage after his passing, such a shame.
It would seem likely that Marpa had other options for transmission (Milarepa would have been an obvious choice) and given the ire, such practice drew at the time, if the lineage survives it is well guarded for good reason.

Shaun :namaste:

marcofromM
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by marcofromM » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:06 pm

To rely upon a single source for this story might be too one-sided, I think. Especially since Ralo's Biography is boasting so much about "liberating" 13 translators. As a whole this is a hagiography which is aiming to illustrate the immense magic powers of Ralo.

First of all, we might raise the question as to why Marpa's son needed to be liberated at all. Since the condition for such action to be justified would be to destroy the dharma and all of it. That didn't seem to be the case.

Second, we might need to read other sources as well. Such as the older Namthars of Marpa. There, we might find an entirely different picture of the story that surprisingly does not mention Ralo or for better no story at all. For that, have a look at Ducher who actually read Marpa's biographies of old: https://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/41307/1/Ducher_2017.pdf

zerwe
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by zerwe » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:54 am

marcofromM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:06 pm
To rely upon a single source for this story might be too one-sided, I think. Especially since Ralo's Biography is boasting so much about "liberating" 13 translators. As a whole this is a hagiography which is aiming to illustrate the immense magic powers of Ralo.

First of all, we might raise the question as to why Marpa's son needed to be liberated at all. Since the condition for such action to be justified would be to destroy the dharma and all of it. That didn't seem to be the case.

Second, we might need to read other sources as well. Such as the older Namthars of Marpa. There, we might find an entirely different picture of the story that surprisingly does not mention Ralo or for better no story at all. For that, have a look at Ducher who actually read Marpa's biographies of old: https://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/41307/1/Ducher_2017.pdf
Thanks, Marco. I picked up All-Pervading Melodious Drumbeat and I will take a look at your source material as well.

Shaun :namaste:

marcofromM
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Re: Ra Lotsawa vs. Tarmadote (Marpa's son)

Post by marcofromM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:47 pm

My pleasure, Shaun.

When listening to teachings about the lives of lamas, I felt that there is always one version of a story that is taught over and over again. Like in Mila's case based on Tsangnyön Heruka's biography. Which is a wonderful book and an outstanding piece of Tibetan literature.
But, also in that case reading older bios of Mila, there are different accounts all along. It might be that lamas are not doing historical studies reading through all versions available.
Mainly biographies in the Tibetan tradition serve as means to instils devotion in the disciples mind. They rarely are historical accounts and if they are, they are often biased by the view of the given school. A prime example for that is the 5th Dalai Lama and his take on warfare.

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