cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

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cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause ?

cessation of suffering
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cessation of suffering cause
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both
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no difference
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Total votes: 10

Viach
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by Viach » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:37 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:15 pm
Viach wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:54 pm
1. The Path we have already discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=31103#p491639
That is a denial of the possibility of understanding the teachings and following the instructions, hence a rejection of the Three Jewels.
2. I had in mind the average man with average abilities.
What is the measurement of abilities?
1. 4TN are not an instruction for practice, they are the answer at the end of the exercises book. You can’t practice the answer, you can only be guided by it. You can only be aware of the answer. The answer naturally follows from the exercise solution. The value of the answer is that you are confident in the correctness of exercise solution and that’s all. That is, without a solution (practice of Buddhist yoga), the answer itself (4TN) has no practical value.
2. As a rule, the measure is a reconciliation of the yogic experience you have already achieved with a description of the reference experience (for example, 4TN, 10 bhumis, etc.). If you are very lucky (which is very rare), then a qualified master can inventory your abilities.
Last edited by Viach on Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jake
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by jake » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:08 pm

Viach wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:37 pm
1. 4TN is not an instruction for practice, it is the answer at the end of the exercises book. You can’t practice the answer, you can only be guided by it. You can only be aware of the answer. The answer naturally follows from the exercise solution . The value of the answer is that you are confident in the correctness of exercise solution and that’s all. That is, without a solution (practice of Buddhist yoga), the answer itself (4TN) has no practical value.
2. As a rule, the measure is a reconciliation of the yogic experience you have already achieved with a description of the reference experience (for example, 4TN, 10 bhumi, etc.). If you are very lucky (which is very rare), then a qualified master can inventory your abilities.
I again ask you to please provide a meaningful definition of what you mean by "Buddhist Yoga."

Viach
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by Viach » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:11 pm

jake wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:08 pm
Viach wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:37 pm
1. 4TN is not an instruction for practice, it is the answer at the end of the exercises book. You can’t practice the answer, you can only be guided by it. You can only be aware of the answer. The answer naturally follows from the exercise solution . The value of the answer is that you are confident in the correctness of exercise solution and that’s all. That is, without a solution (practice of Buddhist yoga), the answer itself (4TN) has no practical value.
2. As a rule, the measure is a reconciliation of the yogic experience you have already achieved with a description of the reference experience (for example, 4TN, 10 bhumi, etc.). If you are very lucky (which is very rare), then a qualified master can inventory your abilities.
I again ask you to please provide a meaningful definition of what you mean by "Buddhist Yoga."
Buddhist yoga is the practice of shamatha and vipashyana.

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Astus
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by Astus » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:43 pm

Viach wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:37 pm
1. 4TN are not an instruction for practice, they are the answer at the end of the exercises book.
The four noble truths is one of the first things one learns about Buddhism, and it serves as the summary of the whole of Buddhadharma. It is also the basis of right view, what one has to come to understand, and eventually realise directly.
You can’t practice the answer, you can only be guided by it.
Being a guide, it is what one follows through until complete attainment.
without a solution (practice of Buddhist yoga), the answer itself (4TN) has no practical value.
Contemplation of the four truths is one of the topics of dharmanupasyana, not to mention all the studies one has to do.
2. As a rule, the measure is a reconciliation of the yogic experience you have already achieved with a description of the reference experience (for example, 4TN, 10 bhumis, etc.).
The four noble truths are not the stages of attainment. Also, having attained any of the arya stages is a measure of attainment, not abilities.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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gedatsu
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by gedatsu » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:02 am

Sorry for getting a bit off track. I find it interesting that the five aggregates are, themselves, suffering (SN 56:11). Elsewhere we read:
“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging; that is, the form aggregate subject to clinging … the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the noble truth of suffering. — SN 56:13

In order to avoid future suffering (i.e. the five aggregates of suffering) we have to somehow stop desiring them:
The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering. — Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta M 28
Is it by sheer will that we abandon desire for them as in "I abandon thee!" or is it by some other means, say, jhāna, a kind of de-conditioning process?

dude
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by dude » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:29 am

No. With correct practice, over time, all unskillful attachments naturally fade away :

"Mahali, if form were exclusively pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings would not be disenchanted with form. But because form is also stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings are disenchanted with form."
Mahali Sutra

haha
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Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause

Post by haha » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:46 am

It may be useful here.
At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, there are these five aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging.

“So long as I did not directly know as they really are the five aggregates subject to clinging in four phases, (Catuparivaṭṭa) I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Māra, and Brahmā, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans.

Somewhere from SN (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation)

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