Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

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jhanapeacock
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Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:52 am

What is a dharmakaya bodhisattva, and what is the difference between them and a Buddha?

smcj
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by smcj » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:29 am

Where did you hear the term? Context is everything.
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:29 am
Where did you hear the term? Context is everything.
It is from the Maha Pajnapamita sastra
I read it here. But i haven`t read the concept in any other sutra.

"The bodhisattvas [in question here] are not the bodhisattvas with fleshly body (māṃsakāya), who are bound to actions and limited to the threefold world (traidhātuka). All of them have acquired the sovereignty of the dharmakāya (dharmakāyaiśvarya) and transcended old age (jarā), sickness (vyādhi) and death (maraṇa); out of compassion for beings, they dwell in the universes (lokadhātu), move about in and adorn the buddha-fields (buddhakṣetra) and convert beings. Having acquired sovereignty (aiśvarya), they wish to become Buddha and to succeed therein.[1]!

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25129.html

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futerko
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:11 am

There you go - the answer to your question!



edit: - so, a quick search for more info got me; The Concept of the Buddha: Its Evolution from Early Buddhism to the Trikāya Theory by Guang Xing, and also this link, which gives a lot of consideration to the impact of this idea in Japanese Shingon, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kukai/
may all beings be free from the delusion of humanism

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futerko
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:20 am

...and that reminded me of probably the most well known example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanyin
may all beings be free from the delusion of humanism

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FromTheEarth
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by FromTheEarth » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:30 am

In the Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra, allegedly authored by Nagarjuna, Dharmakaya Bodhisattvas are characterized as Bodhisattvas who have eliminated all the fetters (saṃyojana) and achieved the six super-normal capabilities (Abhijñā). They are not born in the three realms but can travel all around the universes as well as serve the Buddhas in the ten directions.
Ordinary/fleshy Bodhisattvas, in contrast, have not yet cut off all the fetters nor could they achieve the sixth abhijña, according to the same source.

In terms of cutting off all the fetters, Dharmakaya Bodhisattvas are equivalent to arhats/way beyond that, but fleshy ones are inferior to Sravakayana arhats.

In the Chinese tradition, scholars commonly equate these Bodhisattvas with those who have entered the first Bhūmi or higher.

How are they different from the Buddhas? Well, if they have not yet transcended the ten bhūmis and achieve the full Enlightenment.

*Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra quotes in Chinese for future reference:
法身菩薩斷結使,得六神通...
「得六神通」者,不生三界,遊諸世界,供養十方諸佛。

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:08 am

futerko wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:20 am
...and that reminded me of probably the most well known example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanyin
Thank you.

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:10 am

Thank you for your answers.
FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:30 am

In terms of cutting off all the fetters, Dharmakaya Bodhisattvas are equivalent to arhats/way beyond that, but fleshy ones are inferior to Sravakayana arhats.
For Guang Xing they are equivalent with tenth bhumi bodhisattvas.

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by SilenceMonkey » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:42 pm

FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:30 am


They are not born in the three realms but can travel all around the universes as well as serve the Buddhas in the ten directions.
法身菩薩斷結使,得六神通...
「得六神通」者,不生三界,遊諸世界,供養十方諸佛。
Amazing! Truly amazing!

What might it mean that these bodhisattvas aren't born or don't arise within the three realms... but they travel within the world freely?

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FromTheEarth
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by FromTheEarth » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:51 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:42 pm
FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:30 am


They are not born in the three realms but can travel all around the universes as well as serve the Buddhas in the ten directions.
法身菩薩斷結使,得六神通...
「得六神通」者,不生三界,遊諸世界,供養十方諸佛。
Amazing! Truly amazing!

What might it mean that these bodhisattvas aren't born or don't arise within the three realms... but they travel within the world freely?
The literal meaning was like this... but I would read it as they should still be born somewhere, presumably still physically in the three realms/the universes we reside in. But they are, unlike ordinary sentient being, not passively born somewhere or constrained by their births.

The Chinese Tiantai School, hugely influenced by this shastra, has synthesized notions of Buddha realms scattered over various Mahayana sutras and developed a doctrine of Four Realms.
The four Buddha-kṣetra, or realms, of Tiantai: (1) 凡聖居同土 Realms where all classes dwell— men, devas, Buddhas, disciples, non-disciples; it has two divisions, the impure, e. g. this world, and the pure, e. g. the 'Western' pure-land. (2) 方便有餘土 Temporary realms, where the occupants have got rid of the evils of 見思 unenlightened views and thoughts, but still have to be reborn. (3) 實報無障礙土 Realms of permanent reward and freedom, for those who have attained bodhisattva rank. (4) 常寂光土 Realm of eternal rest and light (i. e. wisdom) and of eternal spirit (dharmakāya), the abode of Buddhas; but in reality all the others are included in this, and are only separated for convenience, sake.
Quote from the internet

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:51 am
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:42 pm
FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:30 am


They are not born in the three realms but can travel all around the universes as well as serve the Buddhas in the ten directions.

Amazing! Truly amazing!

What might it mean that these bodhisattvas aren't born or don't arise within the three realms... but they travel within the world freely?
The literal meaning was like this... but I would read it as they should still be born somewhere, presumably still physically in the three realms/the universes we reside in. But they are, unlike ordinary sentient being, not passively born somewhere or constrained by their births.

The Chinese Tiantai School, hugely influenced by this shastra, has synthesized notions of Buddha realms scattered over various Mahayana sutras and developed a doctrine of Four Realms.
The four Buddha-kṣetra, or realms, of Tiantai: (1) 凡聖居同土 Realms where all classes dwell— men, devas, Buddhas, disciples, non-disciples; it has two divisions, the impure, e. g. this world, and the pure, e. g. the 'Western' pure-land. (2) 方便有餘土 Temporary realms, where the occupants have got rid of the evils of 見思 unenlightened views and thoughts, but still have to be reborn. (3) 實報無障礙土 Realms of permanent reward and freedom, for those who have attained bodhisattva rank. (4) 常寂光土 Realm of eternal rest and light (i. e. wisdom) and of eternal spirit (dharmakāya), the abode of Buddhas; but in reality all the others are included in this, and are only separated for convenience, sake.
Quote from the internet
I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by FromTheEarth » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:06 am

jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.
Oh please let me clarify myself. It is traditionally taught that Bodhisattvas of higher attainments and Buddhas transcend the three realms and reside in a pure realm. But it is an open question, at least to me, and an ancient controversy, whether that pure realm is physically co-extensive with the three realms (the world we live in). Nevertheless, it shall not be an implausible idea if one is familiar with the story in which the devas perceive water as amrta, humans as water, but pretas as gruesome substances.

One piece of evidence is the doctrine that Bodhisattvas can only achieve Buddhahood in the Akaniṣṭha Heaven, according to, say, the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra and the Cheng Wei Shi Lun. Also, in Vimalakirti Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, it is taught that the way the world in front of us appears is a reflection of our defiled mind, while in essence, it is nothing but pure, magnificent pure land.

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:22 am

FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:06 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.
Oh please let me clarify myself. It is traditionally taught that Bodhisattvas of higher attainments and Buddhas transcend the three realms and reside in a pure realm. But it is an open question, at least to me, and an ancient controversy, whether that pure realm is physically co-extensive with the three realms (the world we live in). Nevertheless, it shall not be an implausible idea if one is familiar with the story in which the devas perceive water as amrta, humans as water, but pretas as gruesome substances.

One piece of evidence is the doctrine that Bodhisattvas can only achieve Buddhahood in the Akaniṣṭha Heaven, according to, say, the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra and the Cheng Wei Shi Lun. Also, in Vimalakirti Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, it is taught that the way the world in front of us appears is a reflection of our defiled mind, while in essence, it is nothing but pure, magnificent pure land.
Concepts such as place, size and time are ultimately empty. For that reason we cannot really speak about a "place" where mahasattvas and Buddhas abide, for there is not really a place and is beyond conception. I always found those descriptions about pure lands with all the gold and gem stones to be nothing more than upaya to motivate people to practice. For the real thing is beyond what a human could imagine. But yes, that analogy works in account that every buddhafield arise from the Dharmakaya.

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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by SilenceMonkey » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:55 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:22 am
FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:06 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.
Oh please let me clarify myself. It is traditionally taught that Bodhisattvas of higher attainments and Buddhas transcend the three realms and reside in a pure realm. But it is an open question, at least to me, and an ancient controversy, whether that pure realm is physically co-extensive with the three realms (the world we live in). Nevertheless, it shall not be an implausible idea if one is familiar with the story in which the devas perceive water as amrta, humans as water, but pretas as gruesome substances.

One piece of evidence is the doctrine that Bodhisattvas can only achieve Buddhahood in the Akaniṣṭha Heaven, according to, say, the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra and the Cheng Wei Shi Lun. Also, in Vimalakirti Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, it is taught that the way the world in front of us appears is a reflection of our defiled mind, while in essence, it is nothing but pure, magnificent pure land.
Concepts such as place, size and time are ultimately empty. For that reason we cannot really speak about a "place" where mahasattvas and Buddhas abide, for there is not really a place and is beyond conception. I always found those descriptions about pure lands with all the gold and gem stones to be nothing more than upaya to motivate people to practice. For the real thing is beyond what a human could imagine. But yes, that analogy works in account that every buddhafield arise from the Dharmakaya.
Actually... purelands are real. Gold, gemstones and all! 🙏

SilenceMonkey
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by SilenceMonkey » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:02 pm

FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:06 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.
Oh please let me clarify myself. It is traditionally taught that Bodhisattvas of higher attainments and Buddhas transcend the three realms and reside in a pure realm. But it is an open question, at least to me, and an ancient controversy, whether that pure realm is physically co-extensive with the three realms (the world we live in). Nevertheless, it shall not be an implausible idea if one is familiar with the story in which the devas perceive water as amrta, humans as water, but pretas as gruesome substances.

One piece of evidence is the doctrine that Bodhisattvas can only achieve Buddhahood in the Akaniṣṭha Heaven, according to, say, the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra and the Cheng Wei Shi Lun. Also, in Vimalakirti Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, it is taught that the way the world in front of us appears is a reflection of our defiled mind, while in essence, it is nothing but pure, magnificent pure land.
I’ve been wondering about this for some time, thank you 🙏

Excellent scriptural basis!

If anyone knows of scriptures, books or articles going more in depth into discussion of these points raised by FromTheEarth, I’d love to see them :)

jhanapeacock
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:25 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:02 pm
FromTheEarth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:06 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:58 am

I don´t think they are born at all in the three realms. they sent their emanations here, but they transcend ordinary existence. The answer is in the commentary :

"The bodhisattva abandons his fleshly body and attains a body of dharmadhātu when he enters into the samyaktvaniyāma and acquires the patient acceptance that accepts and understands non-arising"

That form of existence that transcends space and time is really hard to imagine and is the result of many incalculable aeons of cultivation.
Oh please let me clarify myself. It is traditionally taught that Bodhisattvas of higher attainments and Buddhas transcend the three realms and reside in a pure realm. But it is an open question, at least to me, and an ancient controversy, whether that pure realm is physically co-extensive with the three realms (the world we live in). Nevertheless, it shall not be an implausible idea if one is familiar with the story in which the devas perceive water as amrta, humans as water, but pretas as gruesome substances.

One piece of evidence is the doctrine that Bodhisattvas can only achieve Buddhahood in the Akaniṣṭha Heaven, according to, say, the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra and the Cheng Wei Shi Lun. Also, in Vimalakirti Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, it is taught that the way the world in front of us appears is a reflection of our defiled mind, while in essence, it is nothing but pure, magnificent pure land.
I’ve been wondering about this for some time, thank you 🙏

Excellent scriptural basis!

If anyone knows of scriptures, books or articles going more in depth into discussion of these points raised by FromTheEarth, I’d love to see them :)
There are different types of purelands, those with gold and gemstones are referer to be "nirmanakaya" or "transformation" pure lands. The lands that mahasattvas abide are beyonds this and beyond the greed and understandings of humans. I recommend you to read Shang-Tao and Hui-yang commentary on the subject.

SilenceMonkey
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by SilenceMonkey » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:29 am

Great!

I’m not familiar with these commentaries. Do you know the titles of their translations in English?

jhanapeacock
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Re: Dharmakaya bodhisattvas

Post by jhanapeacock » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:04 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:29 am
Great!

I’m not familiar with these commentaries. Do you know the titles of their translations in English?
I don´t but in the "Dawn of Chinese Pure Land Buddhist Doctrine" is summarized well.

"Decorated with jewels and adornments, these lands are sought by Prthagjanas, who are attracted by "wordly" values" (Pag 104)

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