Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

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tkp67
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Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tkp67 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:02 pm

Abstract Mipam (‘ju mi pham rgya mtsho, 1846–1912), an architect of the Nyingma (rnying ma) tradition of Tibet in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, articulates two distinct models of the two truths that are respectively reflected in Madhyamaka and Yoga ̄ca ̄ra Buddhist traditions. The way he positions these two models sheds light on how levels of description are at play in his integration of these traditions. Mipam positions one kind of two-truth model as the product of an ontological analysis while another model can be seen as resulting from a phenomenological reduction. He accommodates both models into his systematic interpretation, and for him, each one has an important role to play in coming to understand the nature of the Buddhist truths of emptiness and Buddha-nature. Since each model reflects a different style of analysis, or a different perspective on truth,his presentation reveals how neither model alone has the last word on the nature of what is and how it is experienced. This paper analyzes the means by which he lays out these two models of the two truths, and explores the implications of their integration in his philosophical works. A primary concern for Mipam, and a factor that guides his attempt to integrate these two approaches to truth, is his aim to both induce authentic experience and true knowledge on the one hand, and represent reality and the experience of it on the other. These competing and complimentary objectives are a central focus around which both styles of critical reflection, and both models of the two truths, revolve.Keywords MadhyamakaYoga ̄ca ̄raMipamBuddhismPhenomenology
Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

---.> https://sites.temple.edu/duckworth/file ... Truths.pdf

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:00 am

So what?
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

Bristollad
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Bristollad » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:38 am

An interesting paper. It can't be all bad because normally I have an allergic reaction to anything using ontology and phenomenology. That being said, I think he overstates his (asserted but not explained) view that Geluk and Jonang represent two ends of the spectrum of how to meditate on and understand emptiness, and that Mipham's "Nyingma" approach provides the happy middle: not too nihilistic, not too reifying.

tkp67
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tkp67 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:53 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:00 am
So what?

the real value for me is highlighted by this statement.
A primary concern for Mipam, and a factor that guides his attempt to integrate these two approaches to truth, is his aim to both induce authentic experience and true knowledge on the one hand, and represent reality and the experience of it on the other. These competing and complimentary objectives are a central focus around which both styles of critical reflection, and both models of the two truths, revolve.
I understand relative approaches being resolved to the ultimate as an expression of the difficult to understand but representative of the highest teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha. To me that is very meaningful. Relative understanding being reconciled to the ultimate\absolute. Much like how zappa and beefheart made harmonious music starting with and using discordance sounds. YMMV.

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:54 pm

What I mean is..what are you, I, anyone, going to DO about it? This not being the Academic Forum.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tkp67
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tkp67 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:54 pm
What I mean is..what are you, I, anyone, going to DO about it?
Apply the dynamic for the furtherance of understanding the variety of teachings in harmonious light as they are all the golden words of buddha. I think it helps dispel cognitive dissonance in the minds of those who see things in duality. Opening the mind to adopting a new perspective through pragmatic means.

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tobes
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tobes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:39 am

I have found that reading Mipham and Tsong Khapa and trying to understand their respective presentations of the two truths has been super productive for meditating on emptiness.

It culminates in do; it effects every moment of life; every action, every thought.

What is more important to read? There is little that is more essential to the path than getting clear about this.

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futerko
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by futerko » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:46 am

Here is an interesting academic assessment of Duckworth's take on Mipham,

https://www.academia.edu/20568559/Wangc ... ure_Theory_

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:36 am

tobes wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:39 am
I have found that reading Mipham and Tsong Khapa and trying to understand their respective presentations of the two truths has been super productive for meditating on emptiness.

It culminates in do; it effects every moment of life; every action, every thought.

What is more important to read? There is little that is more essential to the path than getting clear about this.
Only those under instruction from a Vajrayana teacher with the correct credentials will ultimately gain anything of substance from reading material that pertains to the Vajrayana. For others it simply adds to the thicket of views.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

SteRo
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by SteRo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:51 am

Maybe this thread should be shifted to the tibetan forum?

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:03 pm

Maybe. The Vajrayana is like a big heap of cowshit. Dig it in to the soil and it does great good. Leave it festering in a pile while talking about it and it stinks the place out.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tkp67
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tkp67 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:03 pm
Maybe. The Vajrayana is like a big heap of cowshit. Dig it in to the soil and it does great good. Leave it festering in a pile while talking about it and it stinks the place out.
I can only see any of this being problematic for those who do not realized their karmic connection shakyamuni buddha. Fwiw your analogy implies the mind as the soil and Varjayana as fertilizer that goes bad when it is unused. I don't believe that is the interpretative you where implying.

tkp67
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tkp67 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:40 pm

SteRo wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:51 am
Maybe this thread should be shifted to the tibetan forum?
It has value from the perspective of proper use of ontological and phenomenological methodologies. It has great relevance in hard to understand writings especially ones with allegory and allusion.

One of the points that is hard for many perspectives today is that certain teachings are no longer relevant because they aren't understandable at face value. The proper interpretive means of these are writings are really best known to the author. In the case of the author being enlightened how do the unenlightened disseminate the meaning?

I think in this instance both ontological and phenomenological means prove effective. Similar techniques have been used on other writings such as the lotus sutra. I believe this methodology would prove certain seeming foreign teachings as far more similar. In the forefront of my mind comes certain buddhist traditions.

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm

The bullshit levels here are off the scale :rolling:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:45 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm
The bullshit levels here are off the scale :rolling:
tkp67 is just another human being, like you, trying to make sense of the Dharma while navigating the internet. If you don't have something nice to say, don't bother. Instead, maybe take the time to actually point out what didn't make sense, or don't engage. Either of those behaviours is better than what you posted.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:45 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm
The bullshit levels here are off the scale :rolling:
tkp67 is just another human being, like you, trying to make sense of the Dharma while navigating the internet. If you don't have something nice to say, don't bother. Instead, maybe take the time to actually point out what didn't make sense, or don't engage. Either of those behaviours is better than what you posted.
I’ll tell you what mate..you translate his post for me. If you can do that in a way that makes sense and is also congruent with the Vajrayana teachings it purports to elucidate I’ll give myself a damn good talking to. :popcorn:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

Simon E.
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Simon E. » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:02 pm

tkp67 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:40 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:51 am
Maybe this thread should be shifted to the tibetan forum?
It has value from the perspective of proper use of ontological and phenomenological methodologies. It has great relevance in hard to understand writings especially ones with allegory and allusion.

One of the points that is hard for many perspectives today is that certain teachings are no longer relevant because they aren't understandable at face value. The proper interpretive means of these are writings are really best known to the author. In the case of the author being enlightened how do the unenlightened disseminate the meaning?

I think in this instance both ontological and phenomenological means prove effective. Similar techniques have been used on other writings such as the lotus sutra. I believe this methodology would prove certain seeming foreign teachings as far more similar. In the forefront of my mind comes certain buddhist traditions.
Here it is...have at it...
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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tobes
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tobes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:35 pm

futerko wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:46 am
Here is an interesting academic assessment of Duckworth's take on Mipham,

https://www.academia.edu/20568559/Wangc ... ure_Theory_
Thanks. The take away point is pretty apt: just read Mipham. I felt like this was true with Petit's work - the translation much more valuable than the commentary.

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tobes
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by tobes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:41 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:36 am
tobes wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:39 am
I have found that reading Mipham and Tsong Khapa and trying to understand their respective presentations of the two truths has been super productive for meditating on emptiness.

It culminates in do; it effects every moment of life; every action, every thought.

What is more important to read? There is little that is more essential to the path than getting clear about this.
Only those under instruction from a Vajrayana teacher with the correct credentials will ultimately gain anything of substance from reading material that pertains to the Vajrayana. For others it simply adds to the thicket of views.
1. These debates are about Madhyamaka. They are relevant to Vajrayana practitioners, but they are also relevant to Mahayana practitioners (for example in the East Asian traditions).
2. You are basically asserting: don't study the Dharma. This is the only bullshit going on this thread.
3. I have heard many masters assert that it is extremely benefical to read and study Madhyamaka - even if it is hard to understand. Because: from little things big things grow. i.e. it is a fruitful karma for any mental continuum to engage in this.

So please explain why you think you know better than these great teachers, and why you think it is more fruitful not to study Madhyamaka than to study it.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:00 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:45 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm
The bullshit levels here are off the scale :rolling:
tkp67 is just another human being, like you, trying to make sense of the Dharma while navigating the internet. If you don't have something nice to say, don't bother. Instead, maybe take the time to actually point out what didn't make sense, or don't engage. Either of those behaviours is better than what you posted.
I’ll tell you what mate..you translate his post for me. If you can do that in a way that makes sense and is also congruent with the Vajrayana teachings it purports to elucidate I’ll give myself a damn good talking to. :popcorn:
No, thank you. Tkp67 can speak for himself if he even chooses to do so.

I will point out that I don't think tkp67 said anything about Vajrayāna Buddhism except to ask for a clarification on a metaphor concerning it that you provided. He is posting material to do with Madhyamaka Buddhism as well: the relative and the ultimate. I don't see any 10,000 or so bodhisattvas and vajra-weilders hanging out together in the vagina of the vajra-consort, so this isn't exactly esoteric material. Do a control + find and see who has brought up Vajrayāna here, how they brought it up, and when they brought it up if you are curious to know how that got incorporated into the thread.

That what he says is expected to be "congruent with the Vajrayāna teachings" seems to be your own idea. Why on earth would you expect tkp67's presentation of anything to be "congruent with the Vajrayāna?" He's identified himself as a Nichiren Buddhist, afaik, and you yourself have publically stated numerous times that you understand almost nothing he says. So why suddenly leverage this expectation onto him, that he ought say something "congruent to the Vajrayāna teachings?"
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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