Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Anders
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Anders »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:28 pm
Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:30 am Following this line of thought would make all modern Mahayana Buddhism effectively reducible to Mulasarvastivada in Tibet...
All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.
Are you seriously saying there is no meaningful difference between sakya, gelug and nyingma and that "mulasarvastivada" is a more meaningful descriptor of them as a tradition?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Anders
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Anders »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:28 pm
Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:30 am Following this line of thought would make all modern Mahayana Buddhism effectively reducible to Mulasarvastivada in Tibet...
All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.
Malcolm, I think that is true for Tibetan lineages. It may also be true for precursor "lineages" in India, I am not familiar with the history. But it does seem that in East Asia, though the lines are not clearly drawn, there was some differentiation into "Schools"at some point in history. I admit to very little understanding of East Asian Buddhist history.
In fact Chinese "schools" are probably more fluid than Tibetan ones. It's only in Japan we find more formal segregations of schools with their own monasteries, etc.

I am nevertheless nonplussed at the apparent kumbaya reluctance to make what I consider to be fairly rudimentary distinctions here. We're now down to all yogacarins and madhyamikans being the same too. Someone should have told the Indian Buddhists and saved us all some paper over the centuries.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Malcolm
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Malcolm »

Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:28 pm
Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:30 am Following this line of thought would make all modern Mahayana Buddhism effectively reducible to Mulasarvastivada in Tibet...
All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.
Are you seriously saying there is no meaningful difference between sakya, gelug and nyingma and that "mulasarvastivada" is a more meaningful descriptor of them as a tradition?
For the most part, there is no meaningful difference between bulk of teachings of Tibetan Buddhist schools. They are all Mulasarvāstivādin from the point of view of ordination; from the point of view of path, they are all Mahāyāna; and they all claim to be Prasanga Madhyamaka in intellectual orientation—though Karma Kagyu and Jonang might considered outliers, they still claim they adhere to Madhyamaka.

The principle difference between Tibetan schools is what Vajrayāna traditions they adhere too. But even this is misleading, since Sakya, Kagyu and Jonang, largely base their teachings on the late Nalanda tradition and the Vajrayāna practitioners who associated with this university, such as Naropa, Ratnakarashanti, etc. While Nyingmapas follow earlier Vajrayāna traditions, they too are based on Nalanda Buddhism. Geluk is based principally on the Sakya and the (now defunct) Kadampa schools.

Thus, in terms of the vast majority of teachings, the four or five schools of Tibetan Buddhism are much more similar than they are different.

The academic curriculum of Modern Tibetan Buddhism is based on Mulasarvāstivādin Vinaya, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma, Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras, Madhyamaka, and some study of Yogacāra. However, the dominant influence in Tibetan Buddhism is Nāgārjuna, and anything that does not comport with Nāgārjuna is considered wrong or inferior view.

In short, trying to tell a Tibetan Buddhist they do not belong to the Madhyamaka school is like trying to tell Chan and Zen Buddhists they do not follow Bodhidharma. You are not going to get very far with that claim.
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:28 pm The academic curriculum of Modern Tibetan Buddhism is based on Mulasarvāstivādin Vinaya, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma, Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras, Madhyamaka, and some study of Yogacāra.
In some select sectarianisms, accusations are levelled that the Tibetan tradition pays more attention to Venerable Guṇaprabha's Vinayasūtra than the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. What is your experience?
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:28 pm The academic curriculum of Modern Tibetan Buddhism is based on Mulasarvāstivādin Vinaya, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma, Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras, Madhyamaka, and some study of Yogacāra.
In some select sectarianisms, accusations are levelled that the Tibetan tradition pays more attention to Venerable Guṇaprabha's Vinayasūtra than the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. What is your experience?
Yes, they do in fact.
Guṇaprabha’s root text, the Vinayasūtra...is based on the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, and includes many references to the specifics of the Prātimokṣa, Sūtravibhaṅga, Karmavācanā, and Skandhaka from that system.
Read more: http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/ ... z6Dxg86UBa
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:16 pm Yes, they do in fact.
Fair enough. Like all sectarianisms, it is on contorted ground, as we could easy direct a similar accusation against the Burmese tradition for studying more of Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha than their own Abhidhammapiṭaka and have it have similar merit, which is to say not much.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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rory
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by rory »

Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:12 pm
But it does seem that in East Asia, though the lines are not clearly drawn, there was some differentiation into "Schools"at some point in history. I admit to very little understanding of East Asian Buddhist history.
In fact Chinese "schools" are probably more fluid than Tibetan ones. It's only in Japan we find more formal segregations of schools with their own monasteries, etc.

I am nevertheless nonplussed at the apparent kumbaya reluctance to make what I consider to be fairly rudimentary distinctions here. We're now down to all yogacarins and madhyamikans being the same too. Someone should have told the Indian Buddhists and saved us all some paper over the centuries.
[/quote]

Anders, it's helpful to think of the East Asian schools as college faculties. Monks would go to the various monasteries to study specialist areas. In China sadly the Tang persecutions decimated Chinese Buddhism. From The Earth, a poster here from China, told me that Tiantai had to send monks to Japan to bring back copies of Zhiyi's(Chih-I the founder of the Tiantai school) works. Chinese esotericism never recovered and died out as a tradition.

In Japan there was never this kind of persecution, and there was a tendancy to form breakaway single practice schools eg: Rinzai Zen, Soto Zen, Jodo Shu, Jodo Shinshu, Nichiren all broke away from Tendai. This is unlike Mainland Asia where the tendancy was to coalesce. Additionally Japanese Buddhism saw and sees itself as curators of a great cultural and intellectual Buddhist heritage so they very consciously preserve the arts, practices, writings etc from the past. So today in Japan there still is the Hosso, Yogacarya, school and the Kegon, Avatamsaka school as well as Tendai, Tiantai, and Shingon, the latter two which also preserved ithe inheritance of Chinese esotericism.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by rory »

Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:12 pm
But it does seem that in East Asia, though the lines are not clearly drawn, there was some differentiation into "Schools"at some point in history. I admit to very little understanding of East Asian Buddhist history.

In fact Chinese "schools" are probably more fluid than Tibetan ones. It's only in Japan we find more formal segregations of schools with their own monasteries, etc.

Anders, it's helpful to think of the East Asian schools as college faculties. Monks would go to the various monasteries to study specialist areas. In China sadly the Tang persecutions decimated Chinese Buddhism. From The Earth, a poster here from China, told me that Tiantai had to send monks to Japan to bring back copies of Zhiyi's(Chih-I the founder of the Tiantai school) works. Chinese esotericism never recovered and died out as a tradition.

In Japan there was never this kind of persecution, and there was a tendancy to form breakaway single practice schools eg: Rinzai Zen, Soto Zen, Jodo Shu, Jodo Shinshu, Nichiren all broke away from Tendai. This is unlike Mainland Asia where the tendancy was to coalesce. Additionally Japanese Buddhism saw and sees itself as curators of a great cultural and intellectual Buddhist heritage so they very consciously preserve the arts, practices, writings etc from the past. So today in Japan there still is the Hosso, Yogacarya, school and the Kegon, Avatamsaka school as well as Tendai, Tiantai, and Shingon, the latter two which also preserved ithe inheritance of Chinese esotericism.
gassho
Rory
[/quote]
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

Question for the assembly,

Why are benefits of vows received by a lineage?

Why can’t vows made by your own?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:18 am Question for the assembly,

Why are benefits of vows received by a lineage?
Blessings
Why can’t vows made by your own?
Go ahead. Try blessing yourself. Tell me how it goes.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

smcj wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:02 am
LastLegend wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:18 am Question for the assembly,

Why are benefits of vows received by a lineage?
Blessings
Why can’t vows made by your own?
Go ahead. Try blessing yourself. Tell me how it goes.
Fine. Who is blessing? Don’t mind if I ask. How are blessings defined?

I’ll tell you my thoughts on second part later?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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LastLegend
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

Fine. I don’t know exactly what blessings is. I’ll tell you I take that right now Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are doing their work to heart. Any person can make you feel blissful and calm just by making a pure wish towards you because that’s actually using Dharmakaya because that thought is pure and non-self. The question is at what state of mind allow you to receive that? Not a mind that is ‘closed’ and contained within self 5 skandhas! So then the question is what type of mind is needed to ‘CONNNECT’ your Dharmakaya with Dharmakaya of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

So then the trouble is us not the Gurus or Bodhisattva and Buddhas. This is also the reason why Buddhas And Bodhisattvas can’t help sentient beings because sentient beings keep their mind contained in the 5 skandhas. Given that your teacher has the ability to transform your karma from eons of past lives; they would not be able to do that if your mind is not open to them. Not all teachers are capable of doing that. Not all teachers are completely realized. Then people should turn to Bodhisattvas and Buddhas!?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

So then the question is what type of mind is needed to ‘CONNNECT’ your Dharmakaya with Dharmakaya of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas?
:good:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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LastLegend
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

I was told if every thought is pure non self for the benefit of sentient beings that’s Dharmakaya.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by muni »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:30 am So then the trouble is us not the Gurus or Bodhisattva and Buddhas. This is also the reason why Buddhas And Bodhisattvas can’t help sentient beings because sentient beings keep their mind contained in the 5 skandhas. Given that your teacher has the ability to transform your karma from eons of past lives; they would not be able to do that if your mind is not open to them. Not all teachers are capable of doing that. Not all teachers are completely realized. Then people should turn to Bodhisattvas and Buddhas!?
If we are not open to it, we are locked in our karma. This reminds me on trust.

And not "all teachers" can help to awaken. But then, it depends on own 'trouble' what is perceived.
Some perceive all as Buddha and then I think there is no further "particular Buddha" since Nature is interdependent-empty. Of course there are amazing teachings but we see that ussually not as compassionate action but as a teaching "from famous person".
( Nirmanakaya-Sambhogakaya-Dharmakaya are however not separate.)

While we see good independent ones, bad independent ones, wise independent ones, great independent ones and all other kinds of independent ones...and classify these in prefered boxes. All little Atmans sitting there nicely in their boxes.

Since you say when mind is not open, it is by own perception how we see the Master. The Master can say I am not enlightened, he/she can say; we simple beings and so on, in a way of equalizing with students as a teaching on itself. But when we perceive a not realized Master teaching us, what teaching we get?
I remember something like this; if you see a human, you get teaching by a Human, if you see a Bodhisattva, you get teaching from a Bodhisattva, when Buddha... Forgot the source.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by LastLegend »

It’s just how we manage every thought.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
muni
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by muni »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:57 am It’s just how we manage every thought.
Thoughts are manipulating ME, I'll shoot them!


Free play of lucid mind.


I found this:
Compassion is the recognition that sentient beings and Buddhas are not different.
Is somehow what I mean.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Aemilius »

Anders wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:12 pm
conebeckham wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:28 pm

All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.
Malcolm, I think that is true for Tibetan lineages. It may also be true for precursor "lineages" in India, I am not familiar with the history. But it does seem that in East Asia, though the lines are not clearly drawn, there was some differentiation into "Schools"at some point in history. I admit to very little understanding of East Asian Buddhist history.
In fact Chinese "schools" are probably more fluid than Tibetan ones. It's only in Japan we find more formal segregations of schools with their own monasteries, etc.

I am nevertheless nonplussed at the apparent kumbaya reluctance to make what I consider to be fairly rudimentary distinctions here. We're now down to all yogacarins and madhyamikans being the same too. Someone should have told the Indian Buddhists and saved us all some paper over the centuries.
A split in the Sangha (Sanghabheda) is defined in the Vinaya as having taken place when the Sangha doesn't anymore meditate together to ordain new people. We have seen this happen several times in the modern history.
We can postulate that Yogacarins and Madhyamikas remained in the same Sangha, and did ordain together new people. But it seems that they at least were two different factions, and probably did not meditate together ordain new members, their disagreements seem quite serious in certain texts. Was there an actual split on the organisational level in India between them? We probably don't know much about that, do we?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I was told if every thought is pure non self for the benefit of sentient beings that’s Dharmakaya.
:good:

Actually the Uttaratantra says that the Dharmakaya is the pure, positive, potential to benefit beings but it acts without thought or mentation of any kind. :rolleye:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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