Bhumi 10 or 11?

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Caoimhghín
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Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:08 am

Some people place complete awakening at bhumi 10, and some place that awakening beyond it, on a rhetorical bhumi 11.

Anyone know more about this?
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Aemilius
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Aemilius » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:17 am

Har Dayal says in Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature, chapter VI that there are different conceptions of the Bhumis in the sanskrit Mahayana literature with quite different names attached to them. He discusses the bhumis as they are named and described in Mahavastu, Prajñaparamita sutra in Hundred Thousand Lines,The Bodhisattva bhumi, and Dasabhumika sutra: https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... _dayal.pdf
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Malcolm
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:44 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:08 am
Some people place complete awakening at bhumi 10, and some place that awakening beyond it, on a rhetorical bhumi 11.

Anyone know more about this?
The stage of Buddhahood is 11, however the 10th stage is effectively a stage of Buddhahood according the abhisamaya-alamkara.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:47 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:08 am
Some people place complete awakening at bhumi 10, and some place that awakening beyond it, on a rhetorical bhumi 11.

Anyone know more about this?
Study & ponder this section on the 10th Ground of the Ten Grounds Sutra. Skip down to the Summarizing Stanzas, if you wish. There is a stage or ground beyond the 10th called the Tathagata Ground. Whether that is 11th or 12th or beyond number or calculation remains to be known.

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra36f.html

There are now two new translations of this sutra by Kalavinka Press.
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:01 pm

Here is snip from Cleary's version - page 798 of the one volume edition:
Moon of Liberation said, "What is the entrance into the range of the
sphere of buddhas like, if the realm and power of the practice of enlightening
beings is so infinite?"

Diamond Matrix said, "Your question seems to me like that of a man
who picks up a few pebbles and says, ' Which is bigger, the endless realms
of the earth or these pebbles? ' How can you compare the state of enlightening
beings to that of the buddhas, the completely enlightened, who
have measureless knowledge? That which can be picked up off the
ground by hand is small, while the rest of the earth is immeasurable:
in the same way, even this Cloud of Teaching [10th] stage of enlightening
beings would only be told to a small extent even if it were explained
for countless eons - how much the more so of the stage of buddhahood !
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:17 am
Har Dayal says in Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature, chapter VI that there are different conceptions of the Bhumis in the sanskrit Mahayana literature with quite different names attached to them. He discusses the bhumis as they are named and described in Mahavastu, Prajñaparamita sutra in Hundred Thousand Lines,The Bodhisattva bhumi, and Dasabhumika sutra: https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... _dayal.pdf
Dayal (p. 283) does admit that the Ten Grounds Sutra is the accepted standard now:
The Da. Bhü [Dasabhumika sutra] thus offers a methodical and coherent scheme, which is now accepted as the standard system of division and classification for a bodhisattva's career.
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:38 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:47 pm
Study & ponder this section on the 10th Ground of the Ten Grounds Sutra. Skip down to the Summarizing Stanzas, if you wish. There is a stage or ground beyond the 10th called the Tathagata Ground.
I guess this answers the question.
In countless kalpas, I can describe only a small part of the wisdom and transcendental powers of a Bodhisattva on this Dharma Cloud Ground, much less those [of a Buddha] on the Tathāgata Ground.
(Daśabhūmikasūtra linked above)

Now I just need to find if there's a divergent source inspiring the narrative that the Dharma Cloud Ground is the Tathāgata Ground or if it's just a misunderstanding.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:44 pm
The stage of Buddhahood is 11, however the 10th stage is effectively a stage of Buddhahood according the abhisamaya-alamkara.
That's a commentary on the Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā, isn't it? Does the root text it is commenting on have a daśabhūmika framework or is this an autonomous feature of the Abhisamaya? Is this section from the Abhisamaya where people get their correspondences between bodhisatva bhūmikas and the śrāvaka pudgalamarga (i.e. stream-entry = 1st bhūmi, etc.)?
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

Malcolm
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:24 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:38 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:47 pm
Study & ponder this section on the 10th Ground of the Ten Grounds Sutra. Skip down to the Summarizing Stanzas, if you wish. There is a stage or ground beyond the 10th called the Tathagata Ground.
I guess this answers the question.
In countless kalpas, I can describe only a small part of the wisdom and transcendental powers of a Bodhisattva on this Dharma Cloud Ground, much less those [of a Buddha] on the Tathāgata Ground.
(Daśabhūmikasūtra linked above)

Now I just need to find if there's a divergent source inspiring the narrative that the Dharma Cloud Ground is the Tathāgata Ground or if it's just a misunderstanding.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:44 pm
The stage of Buddhahood is 11, however the 10th stage is effectively a stage of Buddhahood according the abhisamaya-alamkara.
That's a commentary on the Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā, isn't it? Does the root text it is commenting on have a daśabhūmika framework or is this an autonomous feature of the Abhisamaya? Is this section from the Abhisamaya where people get their correspondences between bodhisatva bhūmikas and the śrāvaka pudgalamarga (i.e. stream-entry = 1st bhūmi, etc.)?
Just read it. That will answer all your questions.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Aemilius » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:39 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:28 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:17 am
Har Dayal says in Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature, chapter VI that there are different conceptions of the Bhumis in the sanskrit Mahayana literature with quite different names attached to them. He discusses the bhumis as they are named and described in Mahavastu, Prajñaparamita sutra in Hundred Thousand Lines,The Bodhisattva bhumi, and Dasabhumika sutra: https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... _dayal.pdf
Dayal (p. 283) does admit that the Ten Grounds Sutra is the accepted standard now:
The Da. Bhü [Dasabhumika sutra] thus offers a methodical and coherent scheme, which is now accepted as the standard system of division and classification for a bodhisattva's career.
The point is that the diverse representations of the bhumis shows that there were several Mahayana schools in the beginning (of the Mahayana). Etienne Lamotte in fact says in his History of Indian Buddhism, pages 555.. 556 :

"The Sanskrit manuscript of the Vimalaprabha remarks that the Pitakas were written in ninety-six different languages and that after the decease of the Buddha the compilers (samgitikaraka) had set down the doctrine of the three Vehicles in writing, in the form of books; on the Buddha's order, the three Pitakas were preserved in Magadhabhasha, the Sutrantas in Sindhubhasa, the Paramitas in Sanskrit, the Mantras and Tantras in Sanskrit, Prakrit, Apabhramsha and the barbarian tongue (mlecchabhasa), Sabara, etc. Exaggerations and anachronisms apart, the Vimalaprabha at least has the merit of drawing attention to the multiplicity of Buddhist languages and this is confirmed by manuscripts found in Central Asia."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:44 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:39 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:28 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:17 am
Har Dayal says in Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature, chapter VI that there are different conceptions of the Bhumis in the sanskrit Mahayana literature with quite different names attached to them. He discusses the bhumis as they are named and described in Mahavastu, Prajñaparamita sutra in Hundred Thousand Lines,The Bodhisattva bhumi, and Dasabhumika sutra: https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... _dayal.pdf
Dayal (p. 283) does admit that the Ten Grounds Sutra is the accepted standard now:
The Da. Bhü [Dasabhumika sutra] thus offers a methodical and coherent scheme, which is now accepted as the standard system of division and classification for a bodhisattva's career.
The point is that the diverse representations of the bhumis shows that there were several Mahayana schools in the beginning (of the Mahayana). Etienne Lamotte in fact says in his History of Indian Buddhism, pages 555.. 556 :

"The Sanskrit manuscript of the Vimalaprabha remarks that the Pitakas were written in ninety-six different languages and that after the decease of the Buddha the compilers (samgitikaraka) had set down the doctrine of the three Vehicles in writing, in the form of books; on the Buddha's order, the three Pitakas were preserved in Magadhabhasha, the Sutrantas in Sindhubhasa, the Paramitas in Sanskrit, the Mantras and Tantras in Sanskrit, Prakrit, Apabhramsha and the barbarian tongue (mlecchabhasa), Sabara, etc. Exaggerations and anachronisms apart, the Vimalaprabha at least has the merit of drawing attention to the multiplicity of Buddhist languages and this is confirmed by manuscripts found in Central Asia."
Equally valid is the point that many Buddhist schools taught & represented many Dharma aspects differently. Since Buddha did teach by allowing for differing minds, that makes sense.
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:31 pm

The term ekādaśabhumi is mentioned explicitly in the Ārya-saṃdhinirmocana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra and the Ārya-saddharmasmṛty-upasthāna.

The term samantaprabha, the name of the eleventh bhumi, is found in the Buddha-avataṃsaka-nāma-mahāvaipūlya-sūtra as the bhumi of the tathāgatas. In the Ārya-ratnamegha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra it is called the "stage of buddhahood."

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:31 pm
The term ekādaśabhumi is mentioned explicitly in the Ārya-saṃdhinirmocana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra and the Ārya-saddharmasmṛty-upasthāna.

The term samantaprabha, the name of the eleventh bhumi, is found in the Buddha-avataṃsaka-nāma-mahāvaipūlya-sūtra as the bhumi of the tathāgatas. In the Ārya-ratnamegha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra it is called the "stage of buddhahood."
As you would know better, Vajrayana has three more stages beyond 10. Whether they are distinct grounds or just dividing up the Tathāgata stage, I do not know.
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Aemilius » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:35 pm

Shurangama sutra has 55 bhumis or grounds. Avatamsaka and Gandhavyuha sutras have a similar schema of bhumis or stages, except that the number is 52 or 53, this corresponds to the number of spiritual friends that the youth Sudhana meets on his spiritual journey. The path can be divided further into causal and resultant stages, thus we get something like 110 stages.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:35 pm
Shurangama sutra has 55 bhumis or grounds.
Is fake.

Malcolm
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:52 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:31 pm
The term ekādaśabhumi is mentioned explicitly in the Ārya-saṃdhinirmocana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra and the Ārya-saddharmasmṛty-upasthāna.

The term samantaprabha, the name of the eleventh bhumi, is found in the Buddha-avataṃsaka-nāma-mahāvaipūlya-sūtra as the bhumi of the tathāgatas. In the Ārya-ratnamegha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra it is called the "stage of buddhahood."
As you would know better, Vajrayana has three more stages beyond 10. Whether they are distinct grounds or just dividing up the Tathāgata stage, I do not know.
Well, highest yoga tantra has thirteen stages. Some schools interpret these merely adding two more stages to the bodhisattva path, other schools understand this as being actual stages of buddhahood. The locus classicus of the thirteen stages is the Samputa Tantra, which pretty explicitly states that buddhas of the eleventh and twelfth bhumi have slightly defective omniscience. In yoga tantra on down, buddhahood is the eleventh stage.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:35 pm
Shurangama sutra has 55 bhumis or grounds.
Is fake.
Is not fake. Too many real bodhisattvas cultivated from it. Proof is in the eating, not the recipe.
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

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Aemilius
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Aemilius » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:40 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:35 pm
Shurangama sutra has 55 bhumis or grounds.
Is fake.
Is not fake. Too many real bodhisattvas cultivated from it. Proof is in the eating, not the recipe.
There is a previous discussion of its authenticity, viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31662&start=20
A sanskrit language palm leaf manuscript of Shurangama, consisting of 226 leaves, has been found in China, only 6 leaves are missing from it.

The authenticity of Dharma teachings is discussed by Tathagata Shakyamuni in a sutra given to Mahaprajapati Gautami/Gotami. The current translation or version of the sutta doesn't bring out the actual message of the sutta very clearly, but rather seeks to hide it. The original question seems to be lost. There is another similar sutta, Satthusasana sutta, given to Upali, there also the original question is lacking. But the meaning is there, i.e how can one know what is Dharma and what is not? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I don't think that material sutras (or other texts) remain in the world independently of consciousness, mind and karmic results of the peoples. They can disappear and change, suddenly. Something of this kind has been happening during the past 50 years or so. It is quite impossible to prove, because people believe that matter exists. I have a copy of Maurice Walshe's translation of the Digha Nikaya. In it there are notes to the sutra text, which does not exist (anymore). It was there before, but has disappeared now. Somehow the foot notes still exist. -Or they existed, I should say, I haven't looked at it recently. It may be that the foot notes have also disappeared ?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by PeterC » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:38 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:35 pm
Shurangama sutra has 55 bhumis or grounds.
Is fake.
Is not fake. Too many real bodhisattvas cultivated from it. Proof is in the eating, not the recipe.
But that doesn't stand up to the 'dog's tooth' counterargument

What is the textual evidence one way or another?

Malcolm
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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:43 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:38 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm


Is fake.
Is not fake. Too many real bodhisattvas cultivated from it. Proof is in the eating, not the recipe.
But that doesn't stand up to the 'dog's tooth' counterargument

What is the textual evidence one way or another?


There is a claim that a Sanskrit manuscript of this text exists somewhere in in China.
Li Xuezhu (李学竹) (2010). “Zhōng guó zàng xué — Zhōng guó fàn wén bèi yè gài kuàng” 中国藏学-中国梵文贝叶概况 [China Tibetan Studies — The State of Sanskrit Language Palm Leaf Manuscripts in China]. Baidu 文库. Vol. 1 №90 (in Chinese). pp. 55–56. Retrieved 2017–12–06. ‘河南南阳菩提寺原藏有1函梵文贝叶经,共226叶,其中残缺6叶,函上写有“印度古梵文”字样,据介绍,内容为 《楞严经》,很可能是唐代梵文经的孤本,字体为圆形,系印度南方文字一种,被国家定为一级文物,现存彭雪枫纪念馆。’(tr to English: Henan Nanyang Bodhi Temple originally had one Sanskrit language manuscript sutra, consisting in total 226 leaves, of which 6 were missing… according to the introduction, it contains the Śūraṅgama Sūtra and is most probably the only extant Sanskrit manuscript dating from the Tang Dynasty. The letters are roundish and belongs to a type used in South India and has been recognized by the country as a Category 1 cultural artifact. It is now located in the Peng Xuefeng Memorial Museum.



The notion of 55 stages is a Chinese Buddhist misreading of the chapters on the powers, dedications of merit, and so of the bodhisattvas on the ten stages in in Avatamska Sutra, embedded in a couple of Chinese authored texts posing as sutras.

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Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?

Post by PeterC » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:43 pm
PeterC wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:38 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:16 pm


Is not fake. Too many real bodhisattvas cultivated from it. Proof is in the eating, not the recipe.
But that doesn't stand up to the 'dog's tooth' counterargument

What is the textual evidence one way or another?


There is a claim that a Sanskrit manuscript of this text exists somewhere in in China.
Li Xuezhu (李学竹) (2010). “Zhōng guó zàng xué — Zhōng guó fàn wén bèi yè gài kuàng” 中国藏学-中国梵文贝叶概况 [China Tibetan Studies — The State of Sanskrit Language Palm Leaf Manuscripts in China]. Baidu 文库. Vol. 1 №90 (in Chinese). pp. 55–56. Retrieved 2017–12–06. ‘河南南阳菩提寺原藏有1函梵文贝叶经,共226叶,其中残缺6叶,函上写有“印度古梵文”字样,据介绍,内容为 《楞严经》,很可能是唐代梵文经的孤本,字体为圆形,系印度南方文字一种,被国家定为一级文物,现存彭雪枫纪念馆。’(tr to English: Henan Nanyang Bodhi Temple originally had one Sanskrit language manuscript sutra, consisting in total 226 leaves, of which 6 were missing… according to the introduction, it contains the Śūraṅgama Sūtra and is most probably the only extant Sanskrit manuscript dating from the Tang Dynasty. The letters are roundish and belongs to a type used in South India and has been recognized by the country as a Category 1 cultural artifact. It is now located in the Peng Xuefeng Memorial Museum.



The notion of 55 stages is a Chinese Buddhist misreading of the chapters on the powers, dedications of merit, and so of the bodhisattvas on the ten stages in in Avatamska Sutra, embedded in a couple of Chinese authored texts posing as sutras.
Has anyone done a comparison of that Sanskrit manuscript with the Chinese sutra? I’ve seen the manuscript mentioned a few times but never seen a comparison

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