Nihilistic view

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 3:07 pm

Cessation in Mahayana means dissolving consciousness this does not mean immediate death and going somewhere but the choice to remain here is up to the person. Of course if they choose to remain here consciousness once again manifest as wisdom.
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Astus
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Astus » Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:58 pm
So you believe that in the immaterial realms there is no sense of self?
I did not specify the nature of a possible referent for the idea of a self. Furthermore, four of the five aggregates are not material, so it is quite normal if one identifies with something other than the body.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Bundokji
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:29 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:11 pm
A mental action is still an action and thus has a "causal efficacy", even if it is just mental. Don't forget that there are entire realms that are merely mental. Are they not "real"?
As a thought, yes. But when one talks of a self, it is generally not understood to be merely a thought, but that it has a real referent. So when it is said that there is no self, it does not mean there is no idea of a self, but that what is assumed to be the referent of the idea of a self does not exist. And that is why assuming a self is delusional. The delusion is certainly there, but it is a delusion exactly because the belief in a self is misguided.
In the way you are presenting existence as a reference to what is real, the relationship between existence and value can be easily overlooked. For example, a recurring nightmare can be said to be unreal and therefore has no existence, but to what end? The constant emphasis on it being unreal implies that knowing its "true nature" would eliminate its effects on those who experience it and therefore confirms it. By reducing what is real to the presence of an unchanging essence would be be missing the point of what is it that makes things "real" in the first place except an underlying value.
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Astus » Fri May 22, 2020 3:20 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm
By reducing what is real to the presence of an unchanging essence would be be missing the point of what is it that makes things "real" in the first place except an underlying value.
Please note this previous post. There is no need for an unchanging essence to define reality.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 3:23 pm

If totally not receiving suffering anymore and no more delusional perceptions totally, no sense of self is seen. Fruit of Arahant no more rebirth is obtained. However, scene is still seen because Buddhanature has not reached.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 3:32 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:20 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm
By reducing what is real to the presence of an unchanging essence would be be missing the point of what is it that makes things "real" in the first place except an underlying value.
Please note this previous post. There is no need for an unchanging essence to define reality.
What describes ‘unchanging essence’ ? This is where the confusion comes from. :lol:
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:20 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm
By reducing what is real to the presence of an unchanging essence would be be missing the point of what is it that makes things "real" in the first place except an underlying value.
Please note this previous post. There is no need for an unchanging essence to define reality.
The reference to an unchanging essence seems to be equally present in both the confirmation or denial of a corresponding reality to an idea. In the sutta you quoted, the emphasis (known through repetition) is on the primacy of feelings (sorrow, lamination, pain, grief, and despair) as drivers of action rather than confirming or denying the existence of an unchanging essence. Would calling it an "assumption" makes it less real or having less of an essence?

How can you define reality without reference to unchanging essence? what makes things identical (or recognizable) through time except reference to an unchanging essence that endures change?
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm

How do you describe a table from a chair without first distinguishes it? But this is the problem itself :lol: :lol: :lol: Likewise how do you describe Buddha nature without distinguishing it first?
Make personal vows.

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Astus » Fri May 22, 2020 3:48 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm
How can you define reality without reference to unchanging essence? what makes things identical (or recognizable) through time except reference to an unchanging essence that endures change?
This was the intended section of that post vis-a-vis defining reality without positing an unchanging essence:
"Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Bundokji
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 4:00 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:48 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm
How can you define reality without reference to unchanging essence? what makes things identical (or recognizable) through time except reference to an unchanging essence that endures change?
This was the intended section of that post vis-a-vis defining reality without positing an unchanging essence:
"Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy."
Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 4:05 pm

I was told to keep going back to automatic action of hand raising and see what’s behind that. There is a good reason for that. :lol:

Oh boy. Nihilism.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:00 pm
Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:48 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:39 pm
How can you define reality without reference to unchanging essence? what makes things identical (or recognizable) through time except reference to an unchanging essence that endures change?
This was the intended section of that post vis-a-vis defining reality without positing an unchanging essence:
"Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy."
Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?
A confusing question. :lol: How about what is that knows without essence?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

Bundokji
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 4:48 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:00 pm
Astus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:48 pm


This was the intended section of that post vis-a-vis defining reality without positing an unchanging essence:
"Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy."
Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?
A confusing question. :lol: How about what is that knows without essence?
Would such a thing be knowable?
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 5:02 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:48 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:00 pm


Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?
A confusing question. :lol: How about what is that knows without essence?
Would such a thing be knowable?
If it’s not knowable then Buddhas are to be blamed. Knowing it completely without no longer being tricked by all skandhas is enlightenment.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

Bundokji
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 5:11 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:02 pm
If it’s not knowable then Buddhas are to be blamed. Knowing it completely without no longer being tricked by all skandhas is enlightenment.
Does the above proposition imply that the skandhas have an inherent nature, that of trickery?
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 22, 2020 5:23 pm

Well, thoughts are listed as dharmas according to Abhidharma, so I guess that means they are considered as "real" phenomena.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 5:32 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:11 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:02 pm
If it’s not knowable then Buddhas are to be blamed. Knowing it completely without no longer being tricked by all skandhas is enlightenment.
Does the above proposition imply that the skandhas have an inherent nature, that of trickery?
A proposition is a product of skandhas and causes delusional confusion :lol:. Inherent nature is a description which has become an object ‘it’ being an inherent nature. What unborn Wisdom experience of ‘no inherent nature’ look like?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

Bundokji
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 22, 2020 6:10 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:32 pm
A proposition is a product of skandhas and causes delusional confusion :lol:. Inherent nature is a description which has become an object ‘it’ being an inherent nature. What unborn Wisdom experience of ‘no inherent nature’ look like?
If each proposition causes delusional confusion, then the Arahant would be equally deluded by them and would not use them to teach. A lack of inherent nature does not equate absence of nature.

What unborn wisdom experiences is speculative at best unless through reference to an objective source.
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

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LastLegend
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by LastLegend » Fri May 22, 2020 6:52 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:10 pm
If each proposition causes delusional confusion, then the Arahant would be equally deluded by them and would not use them to teach. A lack of inherent nature does not equate absence of nature.
Arahant (specifically not Buddha) has no delusional perceptions or suffering left they ended rebirth (ended causes of delusional perceptions and suffering). However, they see a Nirvana precisely they either don’t believe in Buddha nature (unborn undead) which cannot be appearance of skandhas and hard to recognize. There is no self or sense of self for Arahant because they no longer experiences such. But they haven’t transcended consciousness which distinguishes Nirvana from suffering in order to reach Buddha nature. They only see no self and that’s it for them.
What unborn wisdom experiences is speculative at best unless through reference to an objective source.
Speculative because it’s cannot be recognized even within the state of clear consciousness can’t tell which is which. So the assumption there is no Buddha nature. Arahant is able to tell/distinguish a table from a chair, you and I, woman and man, clearly without delusional perceptions and suffering involved but they can’t tell ‘that which clearly distinguishes’ is still an appearance and consciousness.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Astus
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Re: Nihilistic view

Post by Astus » Fri May 22, 2020 9:57 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:00 pm
Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?
Both sensory perception and reasoning require causal interaction, so no. Anything unchanging is a conceptual generalisation, not an experience.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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