emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

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confusedlayman
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emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by confusedlayman » Thu May 28, 2020 8:48 pm

I saw a quote somewhere that a master says emptiness is cure for everything. can someone eloborate it and tell me who is that masters?

SteRo
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by SteRo » Thu May 28, 2020 9:43 pm

Don't know that master, but ...

... emptiness certainly is a cure for every affliction. However it should be taken into consideration:
Nagarjuna wrote:When viewing emptiness incorrectly,
Those with little insight will be ruined,
As when a snake is caught in the wrong way,
Or a knowledge mantra is used incorrectly. [XXIV.11]
But also:
Nagarjuna wrote:Everything is possible
For those for whom emptiness is possible.[XXIV.14]

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm

No, it is not a cure.

If it was a cure then the afflictive states, for example, since they are empty would be a cure. But they are not. Nor is the fact that they are empty act as a cure for them.

If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
MISUNDERSTANDING EMPTINESS AS A REMEDY
Lesson 67
When impure thoughts like the three poisons arise, the
practitioner imagines that they are impure and are killers of
liberation and should be defeated with emptiness. After having
intellectually made a separation between emptiness and
the afflictions, he meditates about the afflictions as nonexistent.
Or, if he has received pith instructions from a teacher,
he thinks, "When I have understood emptiness a little bit,
I will use it as a remedy in order to get rid of the afflictions
and thoughts; then I will reach the highest goal, like the
absolute, or buddhahood:' To practice nonconceptuality as a
remedy for thoughts, is called misunderstanding emptiness
as a remedy.
You should not consider buddhahood as something apart,
to be reached after you have got rid of the afflictions and
thoughts, but leave the appearances unaltered, just as they
arise, not separating between good and bad, between the
subject being harmed and the object causing harm.
When emptiness is misunderstood as a remedy, the basic
error is wanting to conquer with emptiness on the one
hand, afflictions as separate from it on the other hand. The
immediate error is to use the meditation on emptiness as a
remedy for thoughts, in order to catch them like with a hook.
These two errors are eliminated by looking at the true nature
of what is rejected, and by effortlessly observing whatever
appears in the mind.
Mahamudra The Ocean of True Meaning p221
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Lazy Lubber
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Lazy Lubber » Fri May 29, 2020 10:56 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:48 pm
I saw a quote somewhere that a master says emptiness is cure for everything. can someone eloborate it and tell me who is that masters?
Jianzhi Sengcan
The Supreme Way is not difficult
If only you do not pick and choose.
Neither love nor hate,
And you will clearly understand.
Be off by a hair,
And you are as far from it as heaven from earth.
If you want the Way to appear,
Be neither for nor against.
For and against opposing each other
This is the mind's disease.
Without recognizing the mysterious principle
It is useless to practice quietude.

The Way is perfect like great space,
Without lack, without excess.
Because of grasping and rejecting,
You cannot attain it.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat May 30, 2020 2:06 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:48 pm
I saw a quote somewhere that a master says emptiness is cure for everything. can someone eloborate it and tell me who is that masters?
no self, no worries. i don't know the master.

reiun
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by reiun » Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.

Malcolm
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 30, 2020 3:51 am

spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.
Yeah, but that really doesn’t mean much. All fire is hot, so what? Buddhanature is just a religious fetish. Like God.

reiun
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by reiun » Sat May 30, 2020 4:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 3:51 am
spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.
Yeah, but that really doesn’t mean much. All fire is hot, so what? Buddhanature is just a religious fetish. Like God.
Intellectual meaning has nothing to do with it.

Fetish? "Buddha nature pervades the whole universe" is fundamental in Zen Buddhism. Yours is a cheap diminution of that path.

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 30, 2020 8:24 am

spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.
Yeah, and?

All beings are afflicted. Buddha nature is obviously not doing it's job properly, if it is the cure.

Where can we file a complaint? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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jake
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by jake » Sat May 30, 2020 8:46 am

spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.
Hi Spike, I've been enjoying your contributions to recent threads. As we're in the broader "Mahayana Buddhism" forum I just wanted to ask for a bit of clarity. When you write Buddhanature are you referring to Tathagatagarbha? And if so, can you provide a brief descriptor of what this term means in your tradition? I'm asking because during a recent book study of the new translation of The Awakening of Mahayana Faith I read an interesting comment regarding two differing perspectives/translations of this by Bodhiruci and others.

reiun
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by reiun » Sat May 30, 2020 5:12 pm

jake wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:46 am
spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:00 pm
If emptiness was the cure then all phenomena (including all beings), due to the fact that they lack inherent nature, would be liberated. But they are not.
Buddha nature is the inherent nature which exists in all beings.
Hi Spike, I've been enjoying your contributions to recent threads. As we're in the broader "Mahayana Buddhism" forum I just wanted to ask for a bit of clarity. When you write Buddhanature are you referring to Tathagatagarbha? And if so, can you provide a brief descriptor of what this term means in your tradition? I'm asking because during a recent book study of the new translation of The Awakening of Mahayana Faith I read an interesting comment regarding two differing perspectives/translations of this by Bodhiruci and others.
Hi Jake. In the Zen tradition or more broadly in the Mahayana tradition, Buddha nature is known to be "the true, immutable, and eternal nature of all beings" (Shambala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen. 1991, p31.) In Hinayana, it is not. My specific first introduction that I can remember was through Hakuin's Song of Zazen, "All beings are intrinsically buddhas", which I believe means the same thing. I am not the sutra scholar or even student, and have not used or even heard of the term Tathatagarbha, which I just looked up, and sounds the same. (I just try to do zazen.)

Best wishes

SteRo
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 5:07 am

spike wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:12 pm
In the Zen tradition or more broadly in the Mahayana tradition, Buddha nature is known to be "the true, immutable, and eternal nature of all beings" (Shambala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen. 1991, p31.) In Hinayana, it is not.
I don't think that differentiatation is valid since 1. "Buddha nature" is not a commonly applied concept in Mahayana and 2. "Buddha nature" often is simply equated with emptiness and emptiness would not be considered a "true, immutable, and eternal nature" by those who do not ignore the advice of Nagarjuna because that would amount to cultivating a view of emptiness.

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 31, 2020 8:16 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:07 am
I don't think that differentiatation is valid since 1. "Buddha nature" is not a commonly applied concept in Mahayana
What are you talking about? It is a significant and widespread concept in Mahayana, both common and uncommon.
2. "Buddha nature" often is simply equated with emptiness and emptiness would not be considered a "true, immutable, and eternal nature" by those who do not ignore the advice of Nagarjuna because that would amount to cultivating a view of emptiness.
Ever heard of Shentong/Yogacara? Obviously not...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Soma999
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Soma999 » Sun May 31, 2020 9:48 am

Meditating on emptiness of things is a cure to many things. Why ? Because when you realise all is co-dependent and do not have an independent self, you realise also what you input with your mind on things is an hallucination. You have an idea of a flower which is not the flower.

This idea and perception about things are sometime worse than the things themself. Some words for disease hold a « view » which is like a curse. If you see things « as they are », you purify them. You stop feeding the problem.

Our concepts about everything condition the mind, and restrict us, which is suffering.

the labels your mind put on things influence you. If you realise It you can change the way you see things, And those things would change for you.

The emptiness of self is the basis of transformation in tantra. Because your « self » is a kind of hallucination, just an idea as you are made of the combinations of all kind of factors. So, this perception and understanding, this wisdom allow for the dissolution of this « self » and the manifestation of the body as the deity and so on, creating pure perception.

When you realise the emptiness of phenomena, bliss comes also. The two unites and generates pure apparences.

That being said, misunderstanding emptiness, like « oh it’s just a dream so i am gonna do all kind of stupid actions », or an emptiness which is « dead », an absence of life, is also a trap, and is not a real perception.

SteRo
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:16 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:07 am
I don't think that differentiatation is valid since 1. "Buddha nature" is not a commonly applied concept in Mahayana
What are you talking about?
About Mahayana in general.

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 31, 2020 10:51 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 am
About Mahayana in general.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Tathagatagarbha is a key element of "Mahayana in general".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 31, 2020 10:54 am

Soma999 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:48 am
Meditating on emptiness of things is a cure to many things. Why ? Because when you realise all is co-dependent and do not have an independent self, you realise also what you input with your mind on things is an hallucination. You have an idea of a flower which is not the flower.

This idea and perception about things are sometime worse than the things themself. Some words for disease hold a « view » which is like a curse. If you see things « as they are », you purify them. You stop feeding the problem.

Our concepts about everything condition the mind, and restrict us, which is suffering.

the labels your mind put on things influence you. If you realise It you can change the way you see things, And those things would change for you.

The emptiness of self is the basis of transformation in tantra. Because your « self » is a kind of hallucination, just an idea as you are made of the combinations of all kind of factors. So, this perception and understanding, this wisdom allow for the dissolution of this « self » and the manifestation of the body as the deity and so on, creating pure perception.

When you realise the emptiness of phenomena, bliss comes also. The two unites and generates pure apparences.

That being said, misunderstanding emptiness, like « oh it’s just a dream so i am gonna do all kind of stupid actions », or an emptiness which is « dead », an absence of life, is also a trap, and is not a real perception.
Emptiness itself is NOT the cure. Understanding and realising the dependently originated nature of phenomena is the cure.

Water does not slake thirst, drinking water slakes one's thirst.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

SteRo
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 11:00 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 10:51 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 am
About Mahayana in general.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Tathagatagarbha is a key element of "Mahayana in general".
Then I wish you eternal happiness with your key element in your "Mahayana in general".

SteRo
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Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 11:02 am

Soma999 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:48 am
Meditating on emptiness of things is a cure to many things. Why ? Because when you realise all is co-dependent and do not have an independent self, you realise also what you input with your mind on things is an hallucination. You have an idea of a flower which is not the flower.

This idea and perception about things are sometime worse than the things themself. Some words for disease hold a « view » which is like a curse. If you see things « as they are », you purify them. You stop feeding the problem.

Our concepts about everything condition the mind, and restrict us, which is suffering.

the labels your mind put on things influence you. If you realise It you can change the way you see things, And those things would change for you.

The emptiness of self is the basis of transformation in tantra. Because your « self » is a kind of hallucination, just an idea as you are made of the combinations of all kind of factors. So, this perception and understanding, this wisdom allow for the dissolution of this « self » and the manifestation of the body as the deity and so on, creating pure perception.

When you realise the emptiness of phenomena, bliss comes also. The two unites and generates pure apparences.

That being said, misunderstanding emptiness, like « oh it’s just a dream so i am gonna do all kind of stupid actions », or an emptiness which is « dead », an absence of life, is also a trap, and is not a real perception.
:thumbsup:

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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness of everything (subject and object) is cure for everything?

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 31, 2020 11:08 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:00 am
Then I wish you eternal happiness with your key element in your "Mahayana in general".
Feel free to keep your false platitudes for yourself. Obviously you are in dire need of them.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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