Finding and leaving the teacher ...

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 15085
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:10 am

It seems the only thing going on in this thread right now is mere self-stimulation! :toilet:
Somebody put this thread out of its misery!
Pretty please!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Posts: 4289
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by muni » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:12 am

TMingyur wrote: Actually there is no view expressed but it is left undecided.
Kind regards
Reflections about the teacher seen through nonconventional light maybe. In this light; leaving is only leaving or fading misconception and so attachment.

no way to add my colorful concepts!
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by truthwithin » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:04 pm

we all need to find a teacher, guide, master, guru, yogi or whatever you like to call their title, so we can learn the teachings of true self awareness, once we have got to a certain level of understanding, then we can leave the teacher and become the teacher ourself....its like we are born dependent, on our parents, if our parents have the correct guidance then they can guide the child in an honest way, or vice versa, then one day we grow up leave the family home and become independent, meet a future husband/wife and start a family, and then we become the parents, and the cycle learning starts when we find a teacher, we become the student, when the student passes the tests and trials they may choose to leave or they may choose to continue study and become the teacher the saying that goes " When the student is ready the master will appear" what this quote means is : that when the student is READY, the student will become the MASTER..


all the answers to life are in us, we just have to know where to look and how to ask...

Karma Yeshe
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:44 pm

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Karma Yeshe » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:35 pm


A Talk on the Relationship between Masters and Disciples

January 04, 2009, By 17th Gyalwang Karmapa
Translated by Tyler Dewar, Karma Choephel, and Ven. Lhundup Damchö for Monlam English Translation Network.

While Milarepa was training under lord Marpa, Marpa gave Milarepa nothing but a hard time in the beginning. For a long time Marpa did not grant him empowerments or instructions. During that time, Milarepa did not lose even the tiniest bit of trust in his guru, though on many occasions he did become somewhat discouraged.

We disciples who follow in the footsteps of the victorious forebears of our lineage are here today to practice. From that perspective, I thought it would be good if during this session, I spoke briefly on the guru-disciple relationship in connection with the beginning of the Kagyu Monlam.

Also, we have expanded a number of the features of the site where we are holding the twenty-sixth Kagyu Monlam, including the main gates and so forth, and I thought it would be good to briefly point out what the tormas represent. The main decorative tormas are those with images of Marpa, Milarepa, and Gampopa on the right, and on the left, those with images of the forebears of the Nyingma school of the early translations, the glorious Sakya lineage, and the Gelukpa order.

The main principle these tormas illustrate is that when we consider the Tibetan Buddhist teachings, there are basically no lineages that are not mixed with the others. When the three Dharma kings Songsten Gampo, Trisong Deutsen, and Tri Ralpachen first established the Dharma in Tibet, the lineage that emerged at that time became known as the “Nyingma school of secret mantra.” Thus the Nyingma was Tibet’s first Buddhist lineage. Later on, during the reign of King Langdarma, the teachings were wiped out of Tibet, and the later propagation of the teachings began. That is the difference between the Nyingma and Sarma vajrayana schools.

Then the oral lineage of the Kadampa masters was passed down from the glorious Atisha, and the Sakya, Kagyu, and Geluk lineages successively appeared. The stages of the teachings of all of these lineages, along with their basic starting points, are the same. The different individual lineages arose out of different lineages of lamas and instructions, but fundamentally there is not even a single lineage that is not mixed with the others. In sum, all Tibetan lineages have been passed down intermingled with the others—all of them share Dharma connections and connections of samaya.

There have sometimes been some minor incidents between the lineages because of each lineage’s different way of acting and different placement of emphasis. Some people who don’t understand practice might have occasionally found such differences discomfitting, because of which various minor incidents have occurred. But as Lama Marpa said, when he put Milarepa through innumerable, unthinkable hardships, although an ordinary person might think at first glance that he was showing Milarepa absolutely no compassion, what was actually happening was that Marpa was acting in this way so that Milarepa could purify his negative actions and obscurations. It is clear that Marpa was not behaving in this way for his own private good or without any reason or purpose.

Thus if we take such accounts as an example, in the long history of the Dharma lineages of Tibet that have survived to this day without excluding any, a few lamas have displayed different sorts of activities and life examples. Ordinary people who do not understand the Dharma might perhaps look at these various acts and get the wrong impression, lose faith, and develop misconceptions. But there is nothing that would allow one to say that such activity was in its essence inconsistent with or contradictory to the Dharma.

Therefore the presence of images of the root and lineage gurus from all of the Tibetan Buddhist lineages here today means that all Tibetan Buddhist lineages are nothing other than the teachings of the Buddha: They are all the same. For instance, it is like the eighteen schools of early Buddhism. All eighteen schools were the same in being the Buddha’s teaching, as affirmed by the account of the prophecy from King Krikin’s dream. Similarly, it is very important for each of us to be able to consider this and think about it. I think that only when that happens will we be able to remain in harmony with our samaya to our root and lineage lamas without contradicting or breaking it. It is important for all of us to stretch our minds in this direction.

Another important point is that it is insufficient to think of the “guru-disciple relationship” only in terms of the teachers we have directly met and made a connection with, without considering other gurus. There are many kinds of gurus, such as root and lineage gurus. Therefore we need to broaden our view of what we mean when speaking of “gurus.” We cannot just consider those teachers we have met and seen with our own eyes in this lifetime to be genuine teachers, while pretending not to know of any other teachers at all. Whenever we recite a meditation liturgy, even a short one, we always begin with a supplication to each of the lineage gurus from Buddha Vajradhara down from one lama to another all the way to our own root guru. It is very important for us to reflect on what the need to value the lineage lamas and recite their names is actually about.

Within our lineages, there have been many great, genuine masters of all sects, and we meditate on them as the field of merit present as a line of crown jewels at the pinnacle of our lineage. But if we cannot bring them to mind at other times when we are actually endeavoring to benefit beings and the teachings, then meditating on the field of merit itself is meaningless. Just as we visualize vibrant images of the lineage lamas in the field of merit when we meditate, when we work to perform benefit for beings and the teachings we must be able to remember the kindness of our root and lineage gurus and emulate their life examples. If we think it is basically sufficient to merely keep ourselves in line with the commands and views of our monastery’s main teacher, perhaps we are not really thinking about the teachings themselves. Perhaps we are only thinking about our own food and clothing.

The master of our own monastery is the one who kindly supports us with food and clothing. If we only focus on taking his side and supporting whatever he does or says, we will not be able to think expansively and in harmony with the general themes of the Dharma as a whole. Eventually it will be as if the vibrant square shape of the Buddhist teachings has been shattered into many different fragments and we will be unable to point to anything and say, “That’s the teaching of the Buddha.” We will find fault with everything and only have misconceptions. Thus, just as we know how to say the words “root and lineage lamas,” it is very important for us to know what those words mean.

We should have faith, interest, and trust in all the root and lineage gurus, adopting a posture of being a disciple of each of them. With this sense of well-grounded faith, whatever activities of practice and study we may engage in, they will be in harmony with the Dharma, and we will meet all the characteristics of a genuine student of the gurus. Without this faith, things will be very difficult for us. This is the reason why the gurus of the lineages are depicted on the tormas we have here. Their images are not there solely to decorate or show off to people: These tormas were made in order to help us remember the kindness of our genuine root and lineage gurus. When we see these tormas, we should remember these gurus’ kindness, and we should reflect on how difficult it would have been for us, without these gurus, to have entered the gateway of the precious teachings of the Buddha and to have an opportunity to benefit sentient beings, free from bias. It is very important that we all think about this.

We need to study the life stories of Marpa and Milarepa that I was just reading aloud, but it is not enough just to read the books: We must reflect on their meaning and engage in the practices following these masters’ life examples, and find some method by which we can apply these teachings in an immediate way in our lives. Otherwise there would be no purpose in reading the life story of Milarepa here. We would be better off studying philosophical texts or learning more about the mind training teachings instead.

The reason why I feel I absolutely must give this transmission of The Life of Milarepa is that we can get a feeling of the practice that an authentic being actually did in his own life. We can get a feeling of being able to make an intimate human connection as if we could take his hand. There are of course many other biographies of inconceivable masters, such as those of the buddhas and bodhisattvas. But ordinary people cannot even get their minds around those life stories, much less put them into practice. Yet with Milarepa, we have the story of how he started out as a completely ordinary person and committed serious wrongs, but in the end accomplished the genuine Dharma with whole-hearted commitment. I think it is the story of such an authentic master that it stays in our minds and moves our hearts.


  | |

Copyright © Kagyu Monlam Chenmo. All Rights Reserved.
What Is...What Was...What Could be...What must never Be.
The Doctor

Something Old...Something New...Something Borrowed...Something Blue.
Amy Pond

User avatar
Quiet Heart
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 10:57 am
Location: Bangkok Thailand

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Quiet Heart » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:21 am

You are of course, right. Only keep it quiet, because beginners shouldn't have that kind of knowledge until they are ready for it (I'm joking about that part).
But a good teacher would know when it is time to chase the student off...because the student has reached the stage where he or she has no more to teach you.
The next step (if you are at that level) is yours to take.
That's the meaning of the 100 foot pole story.
It's the story of the monk who has climbed to the very top of a 100 foot high pole. The monk clings to the vey tip of that 100 foot pole in fear. Where to go?
He or she therefore has nowhere to go except to launch himself or herself take the final step...hopefully into enlightement or at least to deep understandig.
A good teacher will know all this and when the time comes the teacherwill chase the student out to force the student to climb that 100 foot pole.
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests