Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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philji
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby philji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:29 pm

heart wrote:
philji wrote:Where can i read the new letter of resignation?


Here you go: https://cdn.tricycle.org/wp-content/upl ... _eng-1.pdf

/magnus

Thanks Magnus.
p.s. Have a wonderful time in Aussie land.

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heart
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby heart » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:08 pm

philji wrote:
heart wrote:
philji wrote:Where can i read the new letter of resignation?


Here you go: https://cdn.tricycle.org/wp-content/upl ... _eng-1.pdf

/magnus

Thanks Magnus.
p.s. Have a wonderful time in Aussie land.


I had a wonderful time, I am home again now. :)

/magnus
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~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby philji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:42 pm

heart wrote:
philji wrote:

Thanks Magnus.
p.s. Have a wonderful time in Aussie land.


I had a wonderful time, I am home again now. :)

/magnus

Great, it was a short trip then. How was DKJR?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby heart » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:08 pm

philji wrote:
heart wrote:
philji wrote:Thanks Magnus.
p.s. Have a wonderful time in Aussie land.


I had a wonderful time, I am home again now. :)

/magnus

Great, it was a short trip then. How was DKJR?


Yes, the empowerments and teachings was a Friday to Sunday thing, I was one week in Sydney all together. DJKR was pretty amazing in person. He was, for example, talking about his fear of the decline of Vajrayana and he was fearing it was going to be like how Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:

:focus:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby emaho » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:19 pm

philji wrote:Now is not the time to continue with our negative speech and emotions but to make an aspiration that they will continue the path without obstacle.


This discussion is not negative speech. On the opposite, the fact even after 23 pages of discussion people like you still claim that it is shows how neccessary this discussion is. Because Sogyal's actions are only part of the problem. The possibly even bigger issue at hand here is how this has been swept under the carpet for decades. Shaming and blaming the victims, saying their complaints and reports were nothing but gossip and negative speech, accusing them of breaking samaya - this is the real negative speech here.

I think this has been quoted before in this thread, but obviously it cannot be quoted often enough:

"Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. What four kinds?

1) Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
2) Some people praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.
3) Some people do not blame those who should be blamed, [...], and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
4) Some people blame others who should be blamed, [...], and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, of those four kinds of people, whichever blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people."
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby philji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:48 pm

heart wrote:
philji wrote:
heart wrote:
I had a wonderful time, I am home again now. :)

/magnus

Great, it was a short trip then. How was DKJR?


Yes, the empowerments and teachings was a Friday to Sunday thing, I was one week in Sydney all together. DJKR was pretty amazing in person. He was, for example, talking about his fear of the decline of Vajrayana and he was fearing it was going to be like how Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:

:focus:

/magnus

Great example. Lets hope we have the goos fortune to continue having authentic teachers to guide us and be able to be true and honest in our own practice.
My wife and i were fortunate to spend a few days with Erik Pema Kunsang and Tara last week at Gomde UK....amazing...

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Adamantine » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:23 pm

heart wrote:
philji wrote:
heart wrote:
I had a wonderful time, I am home again now. :)

/magnus

Great, it was a short trip then. How was DKJR?





Yes, the empowerments and teachings was a Friday to Sunday thing, I was one week in Sydney all together. DJKR was pretty amazing in person. He was, for example, talking about his fear of the decline of Vajrayana and he was fearing it was going to be like how Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:

:focus:

/magnus


Was he somewhat referencing this situation with Rigpa, in which case it would be on topic? I keep encountering practicing Nyingmapa (mostly or so far all white men) who hold the students to blame for incorrect application of Vajrayana principles, and have sympathy only for Sogyal Rinpoche, the great misunderstood master. It seems that DJKR and in particular his latest book on the Guru is most often referenced to back this sentiment up. So just wondering if you got any sense how he would feel about that... because the above quote in the context of this thread reminds me of something one of these guys would use to support their view.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby heart » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:58 pm

Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, the empowerments and teachings was a Friday to Sunday thing, I was one week in Sydney all together. DJKR was pretty amazing in person. He was, for example, talking about his fear of the decline of Vajrayana and he was fearing it was going to be like how Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:

:focus:

/magnus


Was he somewhat referencing this situation with Rigpa, in which case it would be on topic? I keep encountering practicing Nyingmapa (mostly or so far all white men) who hold the students to blame for incorrect application of Vajrayana principles, and have sympathy only for Sogyal Rinpoche, the great misunderstood master. It seems that DJKR and in particular his latest book on the Guru is most often referenced to back this sentiment up. So just wondering if you got any sense how he would feel about that... because the above quote in the context of this thread reminds me of something one of these guys would use to support their view.


On the first day he talked a lot about the decline of Vajrayana, but he didn't mention the situation at the Rigpa centers. But I don't know very much about the Rigpa centers and I only met Sogyal Rinpoche once, so what do I know. But in general I think DKR's book could just as well be used to make the point that Rigpa students are pretty childish. It is a good book, it covers a lot of sensitive questions and don't really mind being provocative and outspoken, and that is a really good thing in my opinion.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:42 pm

FYI: An article concerning Sogyal and the allegations of abuse appeared yesterday in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, an influential German newspaper. I haven't read it because it is behind a pay-wall.

I have to say that there are some graphic details, both physical and sexual (since Germans are definitely not prudish), that have not previously been reported in the English press (to my knowledge) and also not in the Dutch press (although a lot of the reporting in Dutch publications that I saw were also behind pay-walls). I have never seen this newspaper use such words (as quotes even), which one usually wouldn't even find in the German tabloid press (OTOH, maybe it's my reaction because I would be considered prudish actually, but I have never ever read a SZ article before using these words). You couldn't publish something like this in any highly respectable newspaper (which is what the SZ is) in English.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Karma Dorje » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:55 pm

TRC wrote:This latest letter from Sogyal Rinpoche announcing his immediate "retirement" shares many common elements with his previous written responses. Most notably, lack of acknowledgment of responsibility for any wrong doing and lack of any apology or contrition. And while the Rigpa International organisation is using language that seemingly projects positivity and talks of using correct channels for reconciliation and healing, there can be very little real and meaningful progress without at least some acknowledgment of the the abuse that has occurred from Sogyal himself, but more importantly and meaningfully, some form of apology from him.

I wonder whether Rigpa International recognises the importance of this?


That was exactly my impression. No contrition whatsoever. No shame.

When one is wrong, one should take responsibility.

I am not so sure that it is necessary for him to apologize for Rigpa to prosper, however. On the whole, the Rigpa organization has done many positive things and these will likely continue regardless of what Sogyal Lakar does. Unlike other organizations built around charismatic leaders, there have been many great teachers that have visited and given instruction. It's all a mess now, but if other teachers who have pure morality step in, in ten or twenty years if Sogyal come back to a leadership role I think things will mend.

Time wounds all heels.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby TRC » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:58 pm

emaho wrote:
philji wrote:Now is not the time to continue with our negative speech and emotions but to make an aspiration that they will continue the path without obstacle.


This discussion is not negative speech. On the opposite, the fact even after 23 pages of discussion people like you still claim that it is shows how neccessary this discussion is. Because Sogyal's actions are only part of the problem. The possibly even bigger issue at hand here is how this has been swept under the carpet for decades. Shaming and blaming the victims, saying their complaints and reports were nothing but gossip and negative speech, accusing them of breaking samaya - this is the real negative speech here.

I think this has been quoted before in this thread, but obviously it cannot be quoted often enough:

"Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. What four kinds?

1) Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
2) Some people praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.
3) Some people do not blame those who should be blamed, [...], and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
4) Some people blame others who should be blamed, [...], and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, of those four kinds of people, whichever blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people."

:good:

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:24 am

heart wrote:Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:




Mexican food isn't necessarily all that great in Mexico. It can be, but it can also be awesome in the USA.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Adamantine » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Mexican food was treated in USA in places like Taco Bell, it has all the right names but totally lack the taste. :smile:




Mexican food isn't necessarily all that great in Mexico. It can be, but it can also be awesome in the USA.


I make a pretty mean taco myself, ~ask my wife
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby TharpaChodron » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:34 am

Adamantine wrote:
Was he somewhat referencing this situation with Rigpa, in which case it would be on topic? I keep encountering practicing Nyingmapa (mostly or so far all white men) who hold the students to blame for incorrect application of Vajrayana principles, and have sympathy only for Sogyal Rinpoche, the great misunderstood master. It seems that DJKR and in particular his latest book on the Guru is most often referenced to back this sentiment up. So just wondering if you got any sense how he would feel about that... because the above quote in the context of this thread reminds me of something one of these guys would use to support their view.


Where are you seeing or hearing white males only having sympathy for Sogyal Rinpoche? On here I've only seen otherwise. If I'm missing something I'd like to hear.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:03 am

Now that I think about it, if there is such a thing as a Taco Bell, is there also a Taco Vajra?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Strive » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:15 am

omg i love mexican food.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby buddhagirl » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:14 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Was he somewhat referencing this situation with Rigpa, in which case it would be on topic? I keep encountering practicing Nyingmapa (mostly or so far all white men) who hold the students to blame for incorrect application of Vajrayana principles, and have sympathy only for Sogyal Rinpoche, the great misunderstood master. It seems that DJKR and in particular his latest book on the Guru is most often referenced to back this sentiment up. So just wondering if you got any sense how he would feel about that... because the above quote in the context of this thread reminds me of something one of these guys would use to support their view.


Where are you seeing or hearing white males only having sympathy for Sogyal Rinpoche? On here I've only seen otherwise. If I'm missing something I'd like to hear.


I very much agree with the above observation re white males. It's just a matter of reading through the thread. While there are some commenters here who try to pose a more empathetic viewpoint, the dominant strain tends towards support for Sogyal or the position: "I wasn't there so i don't know what the truth is." I also agree that DJKR's new book on guru devotion seems to be referenced by some to validate support for Sogyal. While those seeking guidance on this issue, on other blogs, are heartened by the clear statements recently offered by the Dalai Lama, Mingyur Rinpoche and Matthieu Ricard.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby TRC » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:04 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
TRC wrote:This latest letter from Sogyal Rinpoche announcing his immediate "retirement" shares many common elements with his previous written responses. Most notably, lack of acknowledgment of responsibility for any wrong doing and lack of any apology or contrition. And while the Rigpa International organisation is using language that seemingly projects positivity and talks of using correct channels for reconciliation and healing, there can be very little real and meaningful progress without at least some acknowledgment of the the abuse that has occurred from Sogyal himself, but more importantly and meaningfully, some form of apology from him.

I wonder whether Rigpa International recognises the importance of this?


That was exactly my impression. No contrition whatsoever. No shame.

When one is wrong, one should take responsibility.

I am not so sure that it is necessary for him to apologize for Rigpa to prosper, however. On the whole, the Rigpa organization has done many positive things and these will likely continue regardless of what Sogyal Lakar does. Unlike other organizations built around charismatic leaders, there have been many great teachers that have visited and given instruction. It's all a mess now, but if other teachers who have pure morality step in, in ten or twenty years if Sogyal come back to a leadership role I think things will mend.

Time wounds all heels.

It seems Rigpa prospered very well and was quite lucrative before, though some would say in a highly dysfunctional way. I think you may be putting a very optimistic gloss on the way this will all be resolved, without there being complete openness. The Rigpa well is poisoned, and nothing short of full transparency and honesty to instil trust in the sangha is going to suffice for the healing process. This thing has a mile to go and play out and I think we haven’t even begun to see the real fallout yet. This fallout will only be minimised and managed well through full acknowledgment and open admission of fault. People need to own up and take responsibility for their actions. This needs to start at the top and not just from Sogyal. Clearly there has been collusion and cover-up at high levels within the organisation, or otherwise the abuse would not have been able to flourish for so long. I suspect that some of those trying to manage this process are also culpable as well, and if so they need to acknowledge this and step aside, or trust will never be established. It looks like at the moment they want to maintain their positions and hope the waters will be conveniently smoothed over.

Who are the group of senior students that Sogyal Rinpoche feels are best equipped to take leadership roles now? Are some of them the same individuals who have been privy to the abuse, colluding and managing the message to control the damage? Are they the same people who have been involved in gaslighting of students who have come forward with legitimate concerns? Will Sogyal just operate and maintain control in the background through proxies he has appointed? These are all very legitimate questions that should be asked and it seems that those showing some discernment are beginning to ask. Not only should there be full transparency, the process needs to be seen to be fully transparent or trust will never be established. I think the notion of transplanting some high profile lamas in to take over the guidance of the sangha may be a good option in the long-term, but in reality is a simplistic solution for the short-term, at least until trust and good faith can be established and proper healing can occur, otherwise things will just fester and erupt later on.

Frankly, I would advise people with the capacity and confidence to just leave Rigpa (but not the Dharma) and go elsewhere. It may be more painful in the short-term, but far better in the long run. It is not until you step outside of the Rigpa mindset and indoctrination that you actually see the full scale of the deception and abuse. And once seen, thankfully, it cannot be unseen.

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Re: Very sad news

Postby veggiepeace » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
CedarTree wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I wish the best to the Rigpa community and pray for some serious healing to take place.


I second this.

I think we need to start creating ethical standards though were money and lifestyles are humble. This is a spiritual path after all.


There is nothing wrong with wealthy teachers. How they derive their wealth however is of some concern.



Good morning and thanks for putting this into words.

As a student and admirer of buddhist teachings and former attendant of retreats held by H.H. Dalai Lama and also Rigpa and Sogyal Rinpoche I would like to express my respect and acknowledgement for all the accomplishments that were able to better the lifes and spiritual circumstances of other sentient beings.
Wherever they went wrong on the spiritual or worldly path, it is nothing to be condemned for, and we assume they will deal with it as good as they can.

Again, I would like to second the above quote:

I wish the best to the Rigpa community and pray for some serious healing to take place.

And I want to add:

I wish the best to Sogyal Rinpoche and pray for some healing to take place.

I wish the best to people who felt or were harmed by experiences during the relationshp to their teacher and the sangha and hope for some healing to take place.

The link that I posted here a few days ago has been changed in the meantime, probably because some thoughts had to be adapted.

https://gendunblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/08/wolve-in-sheep-clothes-vs-black-sheep/

Just wanted to let you know about it. Thank you!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering :buddha1:

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Postby Adamantine » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:22 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Was he somewhat referencing this situation with Rigpa, in which case it would be on topic? I keep encountering practicing Nyingmapa (mostly or so far all white men) who hold the students to blame for incorrect application of Vajrayana principles, and have sympathy only for Sogyal Rinpoche, the great misunderstood master. It seems that DJKR and in particular his latest book on the Guru is most often referenced to back this sentiment up. So just wondering if you got any sense how he would feel about that... because the above quote in the context of this thread reminds me of something one of these guys would use to support their view.


Where are you seeing or hearing white males only having sympathy for Sogyal Rinpoche? On here I've only seen otherwise. If I'm missing something I'd like to hear.


It's only some, a minority, though I did mention it because I can't think of one woman with the same view. As for where, mostly Facebook and in person.. again, it's not a dominant theme. . but it exists to a degree.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


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