Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

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amanitamusc
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Sun May 27, 2018 6:15 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:52 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:44 am
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.
Isn't there a symbolism to it?
There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

Tenma
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Tenma » Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:15 am
Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:52 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:44 am


It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.
Isn't there a symbolism to it?
There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.
If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

amanitamusc
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Sun May 27, 2018 12:40 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:15 am
Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:52 am


Isn't there a symbolism to it?
There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.
If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?
I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

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Aryjna
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Aryjna » Sun May 27, 2018 12:53 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:15 am
Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:52 am


Isn't there a symbolism to it?
There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.
If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?
I think it makes sense in general. When you die just having butchered yourself, irreversibly breaking all your commitments in one of the worst possible ways in the process,and you are in the bardo, the results cannot be good. Taking hallucinogens and having a bad trip is probably insignificant in comparison, but in this case it determines your next existence, and you are also cut off from your lineage as your samaya is gone.

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Malcolm
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2018 5:04 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:21 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
Vajra hell.
Would be the same for killing ones parents?
Yes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2018 5:07 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:40 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:15 am


There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.
If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?
I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.
When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

chimechodra
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Location: Boulder, CO

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by chimechodra » Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 pm

Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.

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Aryjna
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Aryjna » Sun May 27, 2018 5:30 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 pm
Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.
But if you are already in great pain why would it be any better in the bardo to die at that moment than some time later? The reason to choose to die would be to avoid the pain that you have ahead of you in this life, not to do better in the bardo.

pael
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by pael » Sun May 27, 2018 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:07 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:40 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am


If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?
I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.
When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.
When consequences of this will be exhausted? Can they still achieve enlightenment in some future lives?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Virgo
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Sun May 27, 2018 6:05 pm

No relation to your post chimechodra, I just wanted to say that I think a lot of Westerners have a hard time understanding the concept of empowerment.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Malcolm
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2018 8:29 pm

pael wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:07 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:40 pm


I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.
When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.
When consequences of this will be exhausted? Can they still achieve enlightenment in some future lives?
As to your first question, countless millions of eons. As to your second question, yes, eventually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Location: The Empire State

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Sun May 27, 2018 9:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:29 pm

As to your first question, countless millions of eons.
That's a long time.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

Tenma
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Tenma » Sun May 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:29 pm

As to your first question, countless millions of eons.
That's a long time.

Kevin...
Better than eternity...

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Virgo
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 28, 2018 12:35 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Better than eternity...
Yes, that is true

kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

amanitamusc
Posts: 1143
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 28, 2018 4:00 am

chimechodra wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 pm
Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.
When you are being taken care of at home by an agency.It's job is
to administer pain meds whenever the patient asked for them.When they are
unconscious and can no longer ask for the meds the caregiver is trained to administer
more meds until the patient no longer shows signs of pain, ending in death.
I know this because my Mother worked for such and agency.
There are many situations in any ones death.
I used to have some footage of Buddhist monks that were found in caves.They did
not know the reason but they had ropes skillfully wrapped about them in a sitting
position and when they were tired to hold the heads up the leaning forward
motion would constrict the flow of air.This is how they were found.

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Malcolm
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 28, 2018 4:03 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:00 am

There are many situations in any ones death.
But here we are talking about a Vajrayāna practitioner who deliberately takes their own life...even doing phowa too soon is a fault...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
Posts: 1143
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 28, 2018 4:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:03 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:00 am

There are many situations in any ones death.
But here we are talking about a Vajrayāna practitioner who deliberately takes their own life...even doing phowa too soon is a fault...
I understand.I was wandering a bit on this thread.When Vajrayana should have been
the focal point.Interesting about doing the phowa to soon.

amanitamusc
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 28, 2018 4:32 am

There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.

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Malcolm
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 28, 2018 4:34 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:32 am
There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.
Doing Shitro for a person near death can either forestall their death, or ease their suffering, which sometimes means dying a little sooner.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
Posts: 1143
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:34 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:32 am
There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.
Doing Shitro for a person near death can either forestall their death, or ease their suffering, which sometimes means dying a little sooner.
So it could backfire and keep the person alive longer and suffering.That sucks.
or not?

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