Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

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Josef
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:33 pm

chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 pm

I'm curious what teachings the are referring to.
That's probably not an accurate statement regarding the teachings.
A little obtuse, but I think he means the Shambhala terma, which if we follow the whole myth, goes back to Gesar and all the Rigdens of Shambhala, further leading back to when Buddha Shakyamuni revealed the Kalachakra tantra to King Suchandra.
I would imagine you're probably correct.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:02 am

Motova wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:27 pm
rekixatu wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:37 pm
Motova wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 pm
Are the Sakyapas the only one of the four schools who hasn't been shaken by a major controversy "recently"?
Define 'recent'.

Lama Choedak Rinpoche Apologises For Engaging in Multiple Affairs

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 04,0,0,1,0
That does not seem to be on the same level.
Motova, are you deliberately trying to be a Sakyapa apologist? I'm not trying to point fingers at you, just honestly wondering why you think sexual misconduct is less serious than abusing alcohol. The whole reason Buddha Shakyamuni banned drinking is because of the altered state that it causes which can lead to breakage of the other vows. Drinking in and of itself only damages the body of the one getting drunk, but in so doing one can harm others once judgement is impaired. So it's actually the harm done to others that's the main issue, not the drinking per se. If Ösel Mukpo only drank too much in private and didn't harm anyone else we'd be here discussing how he should get help for his addiction out of concern for his wellbeing, rather than the abuses of power and his taking advantage of students for sexual gratification.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:13 am

Shambhala Publications emailed this out today:
Positive Shame

Shame is a loaded word for Westerners. Like most things, it can be seen in a positive or negative light. Negative shame is accompanied by guilt and self-denigration. It is pointless and doesn’t help us even slightly. Positive shame, on the other hand, is recognizing when we’ve harmed ourselves or anyone else and feeling sorry for having done so. It allows us to grow wiser from our mistakes. Eventually it dawns on us that we can regret causing harm without becoming weighed down by negative shame. Just seeing the hurt and heartbreak clearly motivates us to move on. By acknowledging what we did, cleanly and compassionately, we go forward.

Image

Excerpted from:

The Pocket Pema Chödrön
by Pema Chödrön,
page 96
I find myself wondering if this is simply self-serving, if it's Pema Chödrön's take on the scandal, or if it's just the next quote they had slated for email before all this came to light...
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Quay
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Quay » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:25 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:00 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm

The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.
it is probably worth noting that neither Chatral Rinpoche nor any of his heart sons/daughters endorsed this book, Compassionate Action. Indeed several have stated that Rinpoche left no written words.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Miroku » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:28 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:13 am
I find myself wondering if this is simply self-serving, if it's Pema Chödrön's take on the scandal, or if it's just the next quote they had slated for email before all this came to light...
Too big of a coincidence IMO. I doubt that Pema Chödron woul react like that. I am starting to doubt she will react. And it is a shame. I think her voice and opinion could give the victims what they need.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:49 am

Quay wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:25 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:00 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm


The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.
it is probably worth noting that neither Chatral Rinpoche nor any of his heart sons/daughters endorsed this book, Compassionate Action. Indeed several have stated that Rinpoche left no written words.
That doesnt surprise me regarding that particular publication. He did leave behind a solid collection of written works though.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Quay
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Quay » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:22 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:49 am
...
That doesnt surprise me regarding that particular publication. He did leave behind a solid collection of written works though.
People do say both those things.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:01 am

Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:02 am

Quay wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:25 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:00 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm


The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.
it is probably worth noting that neither Chatral Rinpoche nor any of his heart sons/daughters endorsed this book, Compassionate Action. Indeed several have stated that Rinpoche left no written words.
No, he did, published under pseudonyms.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:09 am

Malcolm wrote: No, he did, published under pseudonyms.
Ok. Don’t be shy. Like...who?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Motova » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:11 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:02 am
Motova wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:27 pm
rekixatu wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:37 pm

Define 'recent'.

Lama Choedak Rinpoche Apologises For Engaging in Multiple Affairs

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 04,0,0,1,0
That does not seem to be on the same level.
Motova, are you deliberately trying to be a Sakyapa apologist? I'm not trying to point fingers at you, just honestly wondering why you think sexual misconduct is less serious than abusing alcohol. The whole reason Buddha Shakyamuni banned drinking is because of the altered state that it causes which can lead to breakage of the other vows. Drinking in and of itself only damages the body of the one getting drunk, but in so doing one can harm others once judgement is impaired. So it's actually the harm done to others that's the main issue, not the drinking per se. If Ösel Mukpo only drank too much in private and didn't harm anyone else we'd be here discussing how he should get help for his addiction out of concern for his wellbeing, rather than the abuses of power and his taking advantage of students for sexual gratification.
Dude obviously Shambhala has done more damage to Dharma than one Sakyapa. Nyingma and Kaygu and their late heads now have a thick shadow cast on them. It makes it even worse that Osel was drinking while abusing. The Sakyapa guy seems to have been just cheating on his wife (obviously no good but way better than what Osel has done). Osel has more students and a larger reputation, therefore more damage. I doubt many people will remember the Sakyapa, but CT, regent, and OM now provide plenty of powerful rhetoric for people who want to discredit Vajrayana.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:01 am
The Chilean woman’sstory:

http://andreamwinn.com/project_sunshine ... onduct.pdf
Gross.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am

Norwegian wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm
Motova wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:10 pm


CT and his successors had public support endorsements from the heads of Kagyu and Nyingma.

Moreover, they abused alcohol. They couldn't even keep the precepts... what about the vows and samayas?

The lama linked above just had some affairs with some students, his negative impact on Dharma is much less than Shambhala's.
They also had public condemnation of their actions from lineage masters.
There is a telling passage in Compassionate Action that is pretty clearly an example of this.
"There was an incident a few years ago where a photograph of a late lama was placed in Rinpoche's room (most likely by some disciple of this lama), and when Rinpoche saw the photo, he said, "This person was an alcoholic and had broken his precepts, don't leave his photo in my room; take it away!" The attendant removed the photo from its wooden frame, and found another photo beneath, so Rinpoche asked who was in that photo and was told it was the son of the late lama, who was also a heavy drinker. Rinpoche said, "Like father, like son. Take away both of their photos!"
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.

(To whomever originally insinuated this was referring to CTR)

edited.
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:51 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am
Norwegian wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm


They also had public condemnation of their actions from lineage masters.
There is a telling passage in Compassionate Action that is pretty clearly an example of this.
"There was an incident a few years ago where a photograph of a late lama was placed in Rinpoche's room (most likely by some disciple of this lama), and when Rinpoche saw the photo, he said, "This person was an alcoholic and had broken his precepts, don't leave his photo in my room; take it away!" The attendant removed the photo from its wooden frame, and found another photo beneath, so Rinpoche asked who was in that photo and was told it was the son of the late lama, who was also a heavy drinker. Rinpoche said, "Like father, like son. Take away both of their photos!"
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.
You are replying to me. I am not insinuating anything. I merely posted the story Josef referred to.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:52 am

Quay wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:25 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:00 pm
chimechodra wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm


The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.
it is probably worth noting that neither Chatral Rinpoche nor any of his heart sons/daughters endorsed this book, Compassionate Action. Indeed several have stated that Rinpoche left no written words.
Rinpoche wrote quite a well known text as a response to a heavily sectarian piece of literature called the yellow book, written by a gelug lama known as Zemey rinpoche.

The Gelug lama wrote many instances of Dhogyal taking the life of Gelugpas who engaged in Nyingma practices, and warned them not to mix with the 'impure' Nyingma lineage.

Chadral rinpoche penned a refutation of this text called, "The rain of adamant fire" There was an English translation of it, but I heard it wasn't done so well.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.

Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.

Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.
Yes, after all, it is much more important to preserve the status quo.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:17 am

Motova wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:11 am
Dude obviously Shambhala has done more damage to Dharma than one Sakyapa. Nyingma and Kaygu and their late heads now have a thick shadow cast on them. It makes it even worse that Osel was drinking while abusing. The Sakyapa guy seems to have been just cheating on his wife (obviously no good but way better than what Osel has done). Osel has more students and a larger reputation, therefore more damage. I doubt many people will remember the Sakyapa, but CT, regent, and OM now provide plenty of powerful rhetoric for people who want to discredit Vajrayana.
First off, it's my understanding that Shambhala no longer self-identifies as Kagyu, and hasn't for some decades. The lineage prayers have been changed, etc. But even if they did, how do a few high profile figures besmirch entire schools of Tibetan Buddhism, or Vajrayana as a whole? Shambhala has by no standard been traditional in its approach.

Ösel Mukpo, Lama Norlha, and Sogyal Lakar are not the only lamas in Kagyu and Nyingma to whom practitioners look for guidance, so to throw the baby out with the bathwater is just showing that people willing to write off such a huge swathe probably wouldn't be interested in Vajrayana anyway. To write off a tradition wholesale like that is tantamount to the argument that all Muslims are evil because Osama bin Laden was an Islamist Jihadi. If you're not willing to look beyond the bad eggs then you're not going to invest. Most definitely cultures of silence and indifference and those that help foster abuse must be either transformed or demolished, but that doesn't mean abandoning them completely.

I simply don't understand why you give this Sakyapa lama a pass, downplaying his sexual impropriety while highlighting others. To the women he took advantage of he's just as bad as Ösel, and i say that as someone who was manipulated in a sexual relationship by an authority figure. It's an abuse of power to use one's spiritual authority for personal gain, no less use it for one's own sexual gratification at the expense of students' mental and emotional wellbeing.

Women complained about his conduct and were shut down by other lineage officials overseas, told that they couldn't go to the media for fear of damaging the lineage and preventing others from becoming enlightened. How is that in any way less serious than what OM and the others have done? OM also cheated on his wife, of course, lest we forget Sakyong Wangmo in all of this. Just because the scandal didn't make headline news as much doesn't mean it's less reprehensible or less damaging to those involved. Not to mention that there seems to have been a cover-up from Sakya leadership, indicating the power structure is set up to further victimize.

You asked if Sakya was the only lineage left untainted by scandal, and yet when confronted with evidence you seek to downplay it in favor of other narratives you find more compelling. This makes little to no sense to me if the question was a genuine one. Are you a Sakyapa by practice trying to save face for your tradition? Are you prejudiced against Kagyu and Nyingma? I self-identify as Ka-Nying and have no qualms about calling out abusers from within.
Last edited by Palzang Jangchub on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.

Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.
Your feigned concern and thinly veiled attempts at insults are clownish. Do you have anything to contribute besides your usual asinine and redundant trolling?
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:59 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:45 am
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.

Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.
Yes, after all, it is much more important to preserve the status quo.

Sorry, Acharya, pointing out bullshit has nothing to do with preserving the status quo.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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