Guru Rinpoche As...

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lelopa
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:44 am

the first time i've read Ati Muwer as the tigress is from a book from 1986.
i thought this teaching came from the Jangter, or Dudjom tradition, because Doc ngakpa chogyam Togden was at this time more connected with Chime Rigdzin Rinp. and the Dudjom lineage... :thinking:

afaik ChNN taught Dorje Drolo the first time in 2012 - but maybe it is from an interwiew with ChNN :shrug:
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

lelopa wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:44 am
the first time i've read Ati Muwer as the tigress is from a book from 1986.
i thought this teaching came from the Jangter, or Dudjom tradition, because Doc ngakpa chogyam Togden was at this time more connected with Chime Rigdzin Rinp. and the Dudjom lineage... :thinking:

afaik ChNN taught Dorje Drolo the first time in 2012 - but maybe it is from an interwiew with ChNN :shrug:
what was the book?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:50 am

So does everyone in this academic discussion I have this empowerment from somebody?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 am

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

what was the book?
The book I have as a source from 2012 is Teachings on the Practice of Dorje Trolod (p.26) :

First ChNN explains that Ati Muwer is one of the three Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. Then he wrote this:

''When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread the Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod.''

Interestingly, the translation of the short terma, in the same book, also uses 'tiger' and does not define a tigress in a particular state.

However, in the sadhana on p.99 the being is defined clearly as a 'majestic young tigress'.

So, put the two together and we have the young tigress defined as Ati Muwer.

As far as I am concerned this book is part of the donwang.

In terms of the topic, the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, it is important to follow the visualisations given for a practice. There is no point following a Guru whose veracity you doubt and whose empowerments you find faulty.

I will end with ChNN's own words from that book:

''Whichever kind of method you received, apply that. You should not judge which is better or more correct since all are related to a particular transmission''.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:46 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:21 am

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:26 am

I think faithful students of ChNN could potentially disagree with him on the Ati Muwer claim without that entailing a loss of faith or breakage of samaya.
Tashi delek M,


Thanks again for your elucidations to this difficult to understand topic.

Agree fully to this above mentioned statement.
Its not a shame, to disagree with a Master, without the loss of faith in him.
Sometimes even Samten G. Karmay disagrees with Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche , and Samten Karmay had the right view on his side.
JLA sometimes also mentions that Lopon Tenzin Namdak has so his agenda and it is like that.
That does not mean that Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche would not be a realised Dzogchenpa......
So it is with every Master in our Spiritual Tibetan Traditions, guess they are also humans and we should not follow everything blindfolded but like in this case, make also use of our own Wisdom aspect.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:31 pm
Overall however, the liberation consort is generally identified as Ekajati, and as in the Bio of Tsogyal, Tsogyal is identified as Ekajati, while the tigress is Kyidron. However, as I specified before, this identification arrives in a terma of the later period, and it seems that it spread widely, since Taksham's bio of Tsogyal paints a far more comprehensive lifestory of Tsogyal than other, earlier bios which make no mention of this episode at Paro Taksang.
could you point to any Drolo termas and sadhanas with Drolo as the yidam before the 17th century. I know Drolo was included in the life stories of Guru Rinpoche and as one of the eight manifestations, but wasn't it actually in the 17th century that Drolo actually became a yidam in his own right? With termas of Mingyur Dorje, fifth Dalai Lama, Samten Lingpa, etc. But where were the Drolo termas before this? It would be good to have a look at them to see how he (and his tigress) are presented.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:37 am

You al realize the terma give inconsistent stories; yet, the methods work? Analytical examination of terma stories breaks them down until they seem fictional. The stories themselves are of trivial importance compared to the mantra aspect. The stories are just inspirational. Stories in dharma have always only been allegorical. Did you hear the one about the time Vajrakīlaya walked into a bar with Ishvara and Hanuman?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:57 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 am
michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

what was the book?
The book I have as a source from 2012 is Teachings on the Practice of Dorje Trolod (p.26) :
Sorry, i was asking for the Ngakpa Chogyam book. Be interesting to see another Ati Muwer account but you can never be sure where he gets his info from.
Interestingly, the translation of the short terma, in the same book, also uses 'tiger' and does not define a tigress in a particular state.

However, in the sadhana on p.99 the being is defined clearly as a 'majestic young tigress'.
In the Tibetan the short terma could mean tigress but just have tiger (stag rather than stag mo) as an abbreviation.
The p99 verse also just has stag but gender is made clear by "grus ma" that ticky term that can either just refer to a young female, a female in heat or a pregnant female. rgya could also mean majestic but I've noticed Malcolm translates rgya stag as Bengal tiger.

If ideas are lost in translation or you have misunderstood, do you still break your samaya?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:44 am

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:57 am

If ideas are lost in translation or you have misunderstood, do you still break your samaya?
If you receive a transmission from a Guru and then doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, to abandon trust, and not bother performing the sadhana as transmitted, then what exactly do you have apart from a breach of samaya?

I quoted the clear advice of ChNN on such things and others have said much the same throughout this thread. The topic here was about the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. If a terma practice is transmitted with a specific manifestation described in a specific way, with specific methods attached to the practice, that is what you should follow. Or just don't perform that sadhana or follow that Guru.

Intellectual anal ysis is just fine, but when it results in unfounded advice which may destabilise the practise of others I think it is a path to misery. The essence for any follower of ChNN is Guruyoga, which I would respectfully advise is not best accomplished by comparisons, conflations and confusion.

To allay such nervousness and doubt leading to sadness and lack of progress, we can use precisely those practices ChNN gave us.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:17 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:44 am
If you receive a transmission from a Guru and then doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, to abandon trust, and not bother performing the sadhana as transmitted, then what exactly do you have apart from a breach of samaya?

I quoted the clear advice of ChNN on such things and others have said much the same throughout this thread. The topic here was about the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. If a terma practice is transmitted with a specific manifestation described in a specific way, with specific methods attached to the practice, that is what you should follow. Or just don't perform that sadhana or follow that Guru.

Intellectual anal ysis is just fine, but when it results in unfounded advice which may destabilise the practise of others I think it is a path to misery. The essence for any follower of ChNN is Guruyoga, which I would respectfully advise is not best accomplished by comparisons, conflations and confusion.

To allay such nervousness and doubt leading to sadness and lack of progress, we can use precisely those practices ChNN gave us.
I think, if we are discussing a particular deity and someone comes on and makes a claim about that deity very specific to the tradition they have received (such as "the tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer") that needs a bit of clarifying. As it is at odds with the more commonly held view, including that found in the terma of Adzom Drukpa, the Ati Muwer story really is worth looking into. I like looking into these things as it is an area of interest for me. I don't see how looking into it would destabilise anyone's practice.
As i said, if everyone had been clear from the start and not made sweeping generalisations, and kept to what we know rather than making claims we can't verify, i wouldn't have said anything.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 pm

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:17 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:44 am
If you receive a transmission from a Guru and then doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, to abandon trust, and not bother performing the sadhana as transmitted, then what exactly do you have apart from a breach of samaya?

I quoted the clear advice of ChNN on such things and others have said much the same throughout this thread. The topic here was about the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche. If a terma practice is transmitted with a specific manifestation described in a specific way, with specific methods attached to the practice, that is what you should follow. Or just don't perform that sadhana or follow that Guru.

Intellectual anal ysis is just fine, but when it results in unfounded advice which may destabilise the practise of others I think it is a path to misery. The essence for any follower of ChNN is Guruyoga, which I would respectfully advise is not best accomplished by comparisons, conflations and confusion.

To allay such nervousness and doubt leading to sadness and lack of progress, we can use precisely those practices ChNN gave us.
I think, if we are discussing a particular deity and someone comes on and makes a claim about that deity very specific to the tradition they have received (such as "the tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer") that needs a bit of clarifying. As it is at odds with the more commonly held view, including that found in the terma of Adzom Drukpa, the Ati Muwer story really is worth looking into. I like looking into these things as it is an area of interest for me. I don't see how looking into it would destabilise anyone's practice.
As i said, if everyone had been clear from the start and not made sweeping generalisations, and kept to what we know rather than making claims we can't verify, i wouldn't have said anything.
Everyone else has been clear about accepting a transmission description of a form of GR for what it is, and not seeking to compare it with other sources or termas on the premise that it is somehow dodgy because it may be unique.

The fact that you personally express ChNN's transmission as 'problematic', doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, not to see it as a matter of trust, etc etc, whilst weirdly claiming not to do so, is the problem here. If you have received that empowerment from that 'someone who comes on and makes a claim' it is a most unfortunate path to take.

But it is your obstacle, not mine, so I leave you with it in the hope your words may not persuade others that it is also their obstacle. It is not.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:14 pm

I recall very clearly when ChNN gave this terma he was laughing mockingly in tone and said he never gave this transmission before as if to say, “You probably aren’t ready now either.” The theme was that - this is very VERY serious; be very Very careful and keep it secret.

It’s so so secret that if one lama says on history and another gives another unless you got both from lamas, you shouldn’t know anything except what you got. If you heard different stories, you can only practice one. Go with the one YOU trust and practice secretly.

I strongly advise no should do a PhD on Drolod. You’ll be selling drugs to bribe the committee.

I’m personally convinced these background stories are mere device. They are part of the method and so are geared to whomever was the initial audience to hook them by the nose.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:23 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 pm
The fact that you personally express ChNN's transmission as 'problematic', doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, not to see it as a matter of trust, etc etc, whilst weirdly claiming not to do so, is the problem here. If you have received that empowerment from that 'someone who comes on and makes a claim' it is a most unfortunate path to take..
Honestly, David, i find your emotional over reaction way too much. Malcolm came on here and claimed the Tiger is Ati Muwer. (I've never received an empowerment from malcolm, obviously.) Malcolm made the claim in the kind of matter of fact - that's all there is to it - kind of way he usually does. But that's not all there is to it. There are different opinions. Putting those different opinions forward is important (to me) because i think people should get a clearer idea. The fact is, the Ati Muwer story is unusual. I've not seen it anywhere else (not saying it's not there but i haven't seen it.)
I personally do not see this as "problematic." I don't see difference or innovation as a big deal. But i am interested in where stories come from and how they emerge. I don't doubt ChNN's realisation, the veracity of his termas and visions. I suggested, in a general sense that people treat this story with caution rather than applying it to all Drolo cycles or as a general description of all the tigers (which is what Malcolm was doing) as it is both very unusual and we NONE OF US actually know why ChNN taught it. Sure, we can speculate, but we don't really know.

All you nonsense you have chosen to throw at me regarding what you see as my weird claims and unfortunate path is yours alone and you are very welcome to keep it. I am not taking it.

I will repeat, i am happy that there are a variety of views and stories around the practice of Dorje Drolo. I have no problem whatsoever with difference, diversity or variety. I've taken a number of Drolo empowerments and transmissions over the years and looked at texts from different cycles, and they're all great. I rejoice in the merit of anyone teaching or practicing this profound practice. I personally like to find out all i can about a practice, not for a PhD, but because it enriches my own personal practice. Whatever study and translations i have done regarding different Drolo cycles i have undertaken to better understand and enrich my practice. If people don't like looking at the history of practices and how they develop over time. That's totally fine. But don't go making false or misleading claims about them at me and expect me not to question what you have said.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:30 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:14 pm
I recall very clearly when ChNN gave this terma he was laughing mockingly in tone and said he never gave this transmission before as if to say, “You probably aren’t ready now either.” The theme was that - this is very VERY serious; be very Very careful and keep it secret.

It’s so so secret that if one lama says on history and another gives another unless you got both from lamas, you shouldn’t know anything except what you got. If you heard different stories, you can only practice one. Go with the one YOU trust and practice secretly.

I strongly advise no should do a PhD on Drolod. You’ll be selling drugs to bribe the committee.

I’m personally convinced these background stories are mere device. They are part of the method and so are geared to whomever was the initial audience to hook them by the nose.
Well i would say, keep then this great secret inside your Lineage as sealed and don´t proclaim /stamp that as a great truth to others.
I guess if you either aren´t ready for it, then others are never ready to accept that truth.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:47 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:30 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:14 pm
I recall very clearly when ChNN gave this terma he was laughing mockingly in tone and said he never gave this transmission before as if to say, “You probably aren’t ready now either.” The theme was that - this is very VERY serious; be very Very careful and keep it secret.

It’s so so secret that if one lama says on history and another gives another unless you got both from lamas, you shouldn’t know anything except what you got. If you heard different stories, you can only practice one. Go with the one YOU trust and practice secretly.

I strongly advise no should do a PhD on Drolod. You’ll be selling drugs to bribe the committee.

I’m personally convinced these background stories are mere device. They are part of the method and so are geared to whomever was the initial audience to hook them by the nose.
Well i would say, keep then this great secret inside your Lineage as sealed and don´t proclaim /stamp that as a great truth to others.
I guess if you either aren´t ready for it, then others are never ready to accept that truth.
What “truth”?
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:51 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:47 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:30 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:14 pm
I recall very clearly when ChNN gave this terma he was laughing mockingly in tone and said he never gave this transmission before as if to say, “You probably aren’t ready now either.” The theme was that - this is very VERY serious; be very Very careful and keep it secret.

It’s so so secret that if one lama says on history and another gives another unless you got both from lamas, you shouldn’t know anything except what you got. If you heard different stories, you can only practice one. Go with the one YOU trust and practice secretly.

I strongly advise no should do a PhD on Drolod. You’ll be selling drugs to bribe the committee.

I’m personally convinced these background stories are mere device. They are part of the method and so are geared to whomever was the initial audience to hook them by the nose.
Well i would say, keep then this great secret inside your Lineage as sealed and don´t proclaim /stamp that as a great truth to others.
I guess if you either aren´t ready for it, then others are never ready to accept that truth.
What “truth”?
See all the before mentioned
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:24 pm

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 pm
The fact that you personally express ChNN's transmission as 'problematic', doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, not to see it as a matter of trust, etc etc, whilst weirdly claiming not to do so, is the problem here. If you have received that empowerment from that 'someone who comes on and makes a claim' it is a most unfortunate path to take..
I personally do not see this as "problematic." ..............I don't see difference or innovation as a big deal......treat this story with caution.......Sure, we can speculate, but we don't really know.
So, edited to show bare bones as above. The 'someone' you challenge is ChNN, clearly. Malcolm is just relaying info. If you have received ChNN's empowerment your behaviour here is unfortunate. It is not a matter of being consistent with other Gurus who have described Drolo, even within the Adzom Drugpa terma. It is a matter of accepting that for his transmission, ChNN's description is true and valid, and has no need of the consistency you seem to find lacking, a fault.

You are advising people it is problematic*, to treat it with caution, later qualifying that by assuming they will somehow want to apply ChNN's description elsewhere, when in fact you are the one steering readers to such thinking. You see it as an innovation of ChNN's, and stated so repeatedly, yet cannot prove this, demanding written evidence seemingly in denial of the possibility of oral transmission. You cannot see that it is you who are speculating and using loaded vocabulary in every post. Read your own posts and you will see that you are.

So, what you seem to be saying to ChNN via Malcolm is: I accept what you say as utterly valid, except people should take care, not treat it as a matter of trust, assume it to be a problematic invention. All your words, so own them.

There are countless descriptions of deities and dharmapalas and those of Guru Rinpoche's forms are, like the rest, only useful to point us to the essence of the practice. Of course you are free to find joy in examining how many hairs are on the tiger, but when your vocabulary here clearly points to sowing seeds of doubt about a particular transmission, you may expect your assumptions to be challenged.

*''There are a few problems with the story. .......'' (Quote)
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:24 pm

michaelb wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:51 pm
We would have to look at older texts that deal with Drolo in the various terma traditions, and there are quite a lot of those. One thing is for sure, though, the Drolo texts in the termas as Adzom Drukpa's and Dudjom Tersar include mention of the tigress as the consort rather than as a subjugated Bon deity.
The texts that refer to the tiger/tigress as a yum all seem to post-date Taksham's revelations. I can find no evidence of this in any bio of Padmasambhava, Yeshe Tosgyal, or any terma cycle that dates earlier than Taksham's bio of Tsogyal.

The collection of eight manifestations sadhana in the Northern Treasures states:

stag mo drud ma'i gdan la bzhugs. The verb "'drud pa" means to carry, so probably pregnant, as in "carrying" cubs. No mention of being a yum.

The earliest independent sadhana I know of is in the Drigung Yangzab, which again has no mention of a tigress as a yum. Yangzab was revealed in the first half of the 16th century.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:46 pm

Double post.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:24 pm
The earliest independent sadhana I know of is in the Drigung Yangzab, which again has no mention of a tigress as a yum. Yangzab was revealed in the first half of the 16th century.
yes, that's the earliest i could find as well. Sadly, Lho Ontul Rinpoche was busy when i requested it. I'm actually surprised it's so late, only a century before Samten Lingpa. There was a lot of Drolo actitivy in 17th century, though. Sprung up like mushrooms. Maybe because of politically unsettled times. Interesting to see how it evolved and developed into a set of similar practices.

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