Page 9 of 11

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:54 pm
by Knotty Veneer
Stewart wrote:[

I have definelty seen it implied that Ole is linked with Bernagchen, as in he is/is and emanation of him...so it is out there somewhere.
Just doing a bit more research on this on the internet this morning – it’s not so black and white. I think Diamondway uses the term “Mahakala” to refer to any type of Dharma Protector. Nydahl clearly identifies as a Dharma Protector (as we read in the Nydahl student Burkhar Scherer’s article which was the topic for another thread on DW). He sees himself as performing the activity of a Dharma Protector (which I suppose makes him some sort of emanation in his own eyes) in respect of the Karma Kagyu lineage. This is not something I have ever heard claimed by any other teacher in any other lineage. It adds a useful supernatural element to Nydahl’s persona, though.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:43 pm
by Harold
So can a dharmapala emanate or incarnate in human form or only thorough a kuten, an oracle?

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:58 pm
by Grigoris
Depends.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:10 pm
by Knotty Veneer
Harold wrote:So can a dharmapala emanate or incarnate in human form or only thorough a kuten, an oracle?
Well, I think it depends who you ask.

My understanding is that worldly protectors (i.e. unenlightened protectors who are local spirits and not emanations of great Bodhisattvas) communicate only through an oracle (e.g. nechung, tenma etc.). Wisdom Protectors may appear in visions to great lamas but do not incarnate as such.

Those who follow D**** S****** claim he is enlightened and so his oracle would be an example of supposed wisdom protector speaking through an oracle.

Nydahl’s claim to be some sort of physical representation of the activity of Karma Kagyu Dharma Protectors is as far as I know unprecedented. Although it is still not entirely clear what he claims to be to me at this point.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:59 pm
by Arnoud
Wasn't one of Tulku Urgyen's uncles considered an incarnation of Mahakala?

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:39 pm
by Harold
There are Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who are supposedly dharmapalas, i.e. Mahakala.

Could they emanate as human beings?

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:49 pm
by Knotty Veneer
Harold wrote:There are Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who are supposedly dharmapalas, i.e. Mahakala.

Could they emanate as human beings?
It appears they can. In Rainbow Painting p. 102 Tulku Urgyen’s uncle Samten Gyatso is described as an emanation of 4-armed Mahakala.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:04 pm
by Grigoris
That's why I said "Depends". If they are a fully enlightened being then there is no reason for them to not emanate as a human being (or any other kind of being). If they are not full enlightened then they have to recourse to possession to "manifest" in a form we can perceive. That's the logic behind the deal, now whether you buy it or not is up to you.
:namaste:

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:51 pm
by conebeckham
First, "Emanating as a human being" is not the same as "manifesting through an oracle."

Second, I don't know if Ole considers himself to be "Bernagchen," but the stuff I've seen on the 'net leads me to believe that many of his students think he is. There's no clear and explicit supporting evidence I've seen. But frankly, anyone who practices Bernagchen at a certain level "manifests as Bernagchen." I'm not sure how important this whole issue is, to people who are not Diamond Way students...unless one is trying to build a case against them, or against Ole, and frankly there are far better ways to go about that aim. I'm not saying anything new here.....

Third, Enlightened Beings, which category includes supramundane protectors like the various forms of Mahakala, do not manifest through oracles. If one has seen an instance of a manifestation through an oracle, one will understand this is an inelegant and somewhat clumsy way of communicating. Enlightened Beings would not bother, in my opinion. (My opinion, for the record, is borne out by all the Lamas I've listened to, met, and heard teach).

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:23 pm
by Grigoris
conebeckham wrote:First, "Emanating as a human being" is not the same as "manifesting through an oracle."
Yes, I am aware of that, that's why I referred to possession as a mode of "manifestation" (in quotation marks).
:namaste:

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:25 pm
by conebeckham
Agreed, Greg....we're on the same page, I think. Just wanted to reinforce your point. :twothumbsup:

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:11 pm
by Harold
I know highly realized Masters such as the Karmapa, Sakyapa and the Dalai Lama can find and recognize TULKUS.

Who would and how would you find and recognized a DHARMAPALA in human form?

Is it even possible?

Remember, I'm not talking about a Kuten an Oracle but a real living and breathing HUMAN DHARMAPALA?

Would a candidate be tested in the same way as a person is for the official position of Kuten.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:36 pm
by DGA
Back to the topic of touching:

some years ago my wife and I attended a teaching by the great master Garchen Rinpoche. We had been, shall we say, "working through some unresolved issues." I had the aspiration in my heart that we should get along better, be more patient with each other, cooperate better, communicate better, that sort of stuff.

After the teaching, we crossed paths with Rinpoche and one of his attendants. He motioned us toward him with his hands and smiled. We approached, and he held each of us by the arm for several seconds with his eyes shut tight.

There's more to the story but the short version is that we get along much better now.

This and other experiences have taught me that there's value in being willing to be close to a teacher you trust, close enough to touch.

:heart:

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:49 pm
by oldbob
Harold wrote:I know highly realized Masters such as the Karmapa, Sakyapa and the Dalai Lama can find and recognize TULKUS.

Who would and how would you find and recognized a DHARMAPALA in human form?

Is it even possible?

Remember, I'm not talking about a Kuten an Oracle but a real living and breathing HUMAN DHARMAPALA?

Would a candidate be tested in the same way as a person is for the official position of Kuten.
:namaste:

I've heard, from his teacher, that David, in Vermont, is a Gyalpo. Does that count? :smile:

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:54 pm
by CrawfordHollow
Knowing David, and Ontul Rinpoche, I must say that is pretty funny.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:10 pm
by Inge
I have heard that all who practice the dharma are called dharma protectors.

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:16 pm
by heart
Jikan wrote:Back to the topic of touching:

some years ago my wife and I attended a teaching by the great master Garchen Rinpoche. We had been, shall we say, "working through some unresolved issues." I had the aspiration in my heart that we should get along better, be more patient with each other, cooperate better, communicate better, that sort of stuff.

After the teaching, we crossed paths with Rinpoche and one of his attendants. He motioned us toward him with his hands and smiled. We approached, and he held each of us by the arm for several seconds with his eyes shut tight.

There's more to the story but the short version is that we get along much better now.

This and other experiences have taught me that there's value in being willing to be close to a teacher you trust, close enough to touch.

:heart:
Nice story Jikan. :heart:

/magnus

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:40 pm
by oldbob
heart wrote:
Jikan wrote:Back to the topic of touching:

some years ago my wife and I attended a teaching by the great master Garchen Rinpoche. We had been, shall we say, "working through some unresolved issues." I had the aspiration in my heart that we should get along better, be more patient with each other, cooperate better, communicate better, that sort of stuff.

After the teaching, we crossed paths with Rinpoche and one of his attendants. He motioned us toward him with his hands and smiled. We approached, and he held each of us by the arm for several seconds with his eyes shut tight.

There's more to the story but the short version is that we get along much better now.

This and other experiences have taught me that there's value in being willing to be close to a teacher you trust, close enough to touch.

:heart:
Nice story Jikan. :heart:

/magnus
:good: :twothumbsup:

ob

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:17 am
by Harold
Are their Kutens that have shown a higher level of time that they are possessed by the Dharmapala then most Kutens?

Have any shown a possible inner twining of their life energy with the Dharmapala's ?

In a sense they have become to some greater degree, ONE ?

Re: Investigating fake lamas

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:42 am
by TsultimNamdak
Hello all. I am new here. :namaste: I just came across this discussion here and thought I'll contribute.

Regarding Ole's claims of being Mahakala, he says so himself here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxA0yKeMGM (Whether it is Bernagchen or not is not clear but I would say that it is implied).

I used to know Ole a little way back. Around '91 I was present at a teaching with Tsechu Rinpoche; Hannah was translating and Ole was present. Tsechu Rinpoche gave the advice to Ole's students that even though Ole was not a tulku (TR's words), it was ok for his students to regard him as one. In those days, Ole didn't go around calling himself lama or tulku - the title he used, as far as I remember, was "Buddhist master", although he had started cultivating the Mahakala thing back then. His self-image and the myths he builds up around himself seems to be perpetually evolving.