Questions about Vajrayana

[Dave The Seeker]

This quote from another thread got me wondering/confused. Please note the bold , my emphasis, as to my question.

All sentient beings will have to eliminate their karma to eliminate rebirth. The path should be the goal.
We can't expect an animal or lower realm, human being to adhere to a Mahayana practitioner's set of morals.
A vajrayana practitioner cannot follow the morals of a Mahayana practioner without descent into hell realm.

For a Mahayana practitioner simply refraining from the 10 harmful acts will not be enough, generally speaking.
For example, no killing should be extended to animals (including insects and spiders!) and so forth. But as was stated in the original post, merit must be accompanied by wisdom.

We have to learn to listen to our heart for what's right and wrong and always use a healthy sense of discipline.
The biggest assistance to one's practice is keeping to the good influence of friends and acquaintances.

Now as I've searched and read, the schools of Tibetan Buddhism are Vajrayana. So what are the "higher morals" of a Vajrahana practitioner compared to a Mahayana practitioner?

This confuses me as I am studying the beginners course through FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) which is taught in the Gelug-pa tradition, so why is it the Mahayana tradition and not Vajrayana? As Gelug is a Tibetan/Vajrayana school?

Thanks for any and all help understanding this.


Dave

[smcj]

Ask the FPMT people. As a generalization they are a good group.

But a short answer to your question is that Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana, it is contained within the Mahayana. The "higher morality" is an odd phrase. It might mean the tantric vows that pertain to how certain things are viewed without criticism.

But I must say that the quote you bolded sounds rather extreme. I've been a Buddhist for 35 years and I've never heard anything like that. Where did you get it?

Having said that much may provoke others to disagree, so I will leave it there.

[conebeckham]

It's an incorrect quote, the way it's written.

Vajrayana Samayas are said to trump any Mahayana "pledges," precepts or vows. But that does not mean Vajrayana practitioners are not to follow the vows or pledges of the lower vehicles. However, sometimes the Vajrayana requires actions that seem to be contradictory to Mahayana vows.

So, for example, meat and alcohol are part of Vajrayana ritual, and if one is really practicing Vajrayana, one must partake of meat and alcohol during the ritual. Claiming that one should not, based on Mahayana vows, is a downfall. But a Vajrayana practitioner understands the transformation of the meat and alcohol into sacred substances.

Vajrayana is skillful means, and it interprets the Mahayana vows in unique ways. But it does not say "don't follow those vows." As the most extreme example, Avoiding killing, a Mahayana Vow, should also be followed by Vajrayana practitioners, unless they understand the unique way in which killing is not contradictory to the inner meaning. In general, very few Vajrayana practitioners are truly practicing Vajrayana at the level of upholding the Vows, quite frankly.

[Dave The Seeker]

Thank you both very much for the reply and helping me to understand.

The quote was from another thread here at DW. I didn't understand how it could be correct, hence my confusion.
The last post in this thread is where it came from.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 64#p176964


Thank you Cone, you have been of great help in my understanding of many things.


Dave

[Konchog1]

Vajrayana Samayas are said to trump any Mahayana "pledges," precepts or vows. But that does not mean Vajrayana practitioners are not to follow the vows or pledges of the lower vehicles.

The second Tantric vow is to keep your vows. This means that breaking your Mahayana or Pratimoksha vows breaks your Tantric vows.

[conebeckham]

Sure, Konchog, but that brings us to the question of whether, or how, a vow is broken.
For example, the prohibition against sexual activity and the practice of Karmamudra...

There are different interpretations about all of this, depending on one's lineage and teacher. Actually, the root vows can also differ, depending on lineage, and even on the specific Tantric system one is practicing. Huge subject......

[Konchog1]

Sure, Konchog, but that brings us to the question of whether, or how, a vow is broken.
For example, the prohibition against sexual activity and the practice of Karmamudra...

There are different interpretations about all of this, depending on one's lineage and teacher. Actually, the root vows can also differ, depending on lineage, and even on the specific Tantric system one is practicing. Huge subject......

Indeed, there are differences in schools too. In the Gelug, monks are only allowed jhanamudra, otherwise they must disrobe first.