"...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

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bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:50 pm

Virgo wrote:The human realm is a decidedly higher realm than the animal realm. Animals, also, cannot become realized beings as animals.

Kevin
Hi Kevin!


I understand that is one point of view. What I have been shown is that we are not the humans, but that we fuse with them for the duration of their life span, just as we have done with innumerable beings throughout the cosmos, given that our truer nature is immortal spirit. We enter into these beings because they interest us, and to discover more about how we will react in the intriguing, challenging, and exotic circumstances that constitute their worlds. No human becomes realized, that is a big misunderstanding. However, at the death of the human host, we awaken from our amnesia, which is indeed a realization/recognition.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:I have seen Catherine's head in Sienna, where it is preserved.
Oh?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Practice
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by Practice » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:52 pm

@ Malcolm

Your original post is well put and is a thesis that needs to be reckoned with, by all religions.
Let me ask you though, in your view what is the value, if any, to being a Buddhist? Why bother if science has a more modern and better approach to the structure of reality?

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gad rgyangs
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by gad rgyangs » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:32 pm

bob wrote: The truth is: HUMANS are responsible for the evil acts in the world. Not God or Source.
and what is a "human"? what is the ground of human being?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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Malcolm
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:59 pm

Practice wrote:@ Malcolm

Your original post is well put and is a thesis that needs to be reckoned with, by all religions.
Let me ask you though, in your view what is the value, if any, to being a Buddhist? Why bother if science has a more modern and better approach to the structure of reality?
I don't see Buddhadharma and scientific inquiry as being inherently in conflict.

Buddhism and Scientism on the other hand, are bound to be in conflict.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:10 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
bob wrote: The truth is: HUMANS are responsible for the evil acts in the world. Not God or Source.
and what is a "human"? what is the ground of human being?
Hi Gad,

Speaking conventionally, humans are a relatively sophisticated species of animal commonly found on Earth-type planets that have their own life force, personalities, and innate character traits (like fear and the need for control). Most of their energy is taken up by survival and competition issues, and they are destined for a relatively short lifespan (impermanence). Humans do not go on after death. Their self-awareness revolves around the knowledge that they are alive and can die, as well as recognition of their emotions and instincts.

On the metaphysical level, humans are thought forms that vibrate so slowly that they appear to be composed of solid physical matter. Their heavier density does not make them any less special and unique among manifestation, but then again, there is no part of the totality that is not special and unique. Ultimately, human existence is an illusion of our own creation, much like dreams are an illusion of the human/soul combined being's creation. Both are real states of awareness, and both disappear when the illusion is broken. in our case (as souls) the illusion dissolves when we awaken to our true nature. For humans, death dissolves the illusion.

When we as immortal spiritual beings fuse with human hosts (or with most sentient creatures), we undergo a kind of temporary amnesia, so that the life experience will seem more vivid, open-ended, and real. Nevertheless, it is an illusion. It is as if we so identify with a movie character or video game/virtual reality scenario that we forget that we are actually the audience or player.

The human experience and environs are particularly challenging in the scheme of manifestation, and so offer plenty of opportunities for discovering what we are really made of, as we encounter the various tests associated with humanity, especially in terms of emotional flavors and self-absorptions, as well as painful and pleasurable physical sensations. It serves as an excellent educational environment for those requiring schooling in the basics of right behavior. Likewise, the human circumstance also can serve as an incarceration modality for those who have transgressed universal laws and earned a punitive sentence to balance the karmic scales. Just as there are no accidents, there are no victims either.

This is just a brief overview, of course, and can't really address the issue in the manner it requires, but hopefully it will suffice for an internet message board.

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futerko
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by futerko » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:15 pm

oh dear. cleared for take off :alien:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

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reddust
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by reddust » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:25 pm

Hi Bob, I've heard from other folks like on talk radio Coast to Coast Am about how this world is a school for spiritual beings and this is like kindergarten or prison for the bad guys and for most folk a school to grow up. Makes sense to me, kind of ties into engaging in Bodhisattva behavior. But I've never heard anyone talk about human beings being hosts to advanced spiritual beings. But you hear about demons possessing you, so I guess positive spirits could as well. That almost feels like parasite behavior, how will that help the slow vibrational being called human?

Well, maybe this is going way off topic. Don't answer my question, my curiosity may lead us astray :twothumbsup:

My strategy is to keep it simple and mind my manners. I seriously don't have any opinions on the what happens after death, although I've entertained a lot of ideas. Thank you for your interesting posts, well written too!
Last edited by reddust on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

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gad rgyangs
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by gad rgyangs » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:26 pm

bob wrote: When we as immortal spiritual beings..
ok, so what is an "immortal spiritual being"? what is the ground of "immortal spiritual being"?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:34 pm

futerko wrote:oh dear. cleared for take off :alien:
Hi Futerko,

I am sure that you would be quite surprised to learn that you could be plucked off this globe and put down in thousands of other similar planets, and not even realize that you have left home, until you try to find your family and address (which will not be there). This galaxy alone is teeming with earth-type planets, and of course many other types which support life forms which would boggle your imagination. Don't take my word for it, however, since you will see for yourself soon enough. It really is an amazing universe. And btw, the are people practicing Dzogchen on other planets too, so there ya go!
:o

Rakz
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by Rakz » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
I dont have much of a view about them. I have done a few phowa retreats, got signs and so forth.
These signs weren't enough for you?

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:43 pm

reddust wrote:...I've never heard anyone talk about human beings being hosts to advanced spiritual beings.
Actually, many religions speak about humans having souls, but they've got it backwards. We are souls, having the temporary experience of being human. Eventually, the human critter drops off (the body/mind organism) but we have merely shed an "avatar", so to speak. Eventually, we will even drop off the illusion of being souls, but that's a ways off for those like us who are still working through nursery school. :tongue:

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:48 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
bob wrote: When we as immortal spiritual beings..
ok, so what is an "immortal spiritual being"? what is the ground of "immortal spiritual being"?
Hi Gad,

Beyond what I have shared in that regard already, I will refer you to a more extended consideration here:

http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.co ... -of-light/

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gad rgyangs
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by gad rgyangs » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:59 pm

bob wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
bob wrote: When we as immortal spiritual beings..
ok, so what is an "immortal spiritual being"? what is the ground of "immortal spiritual being"?
Hi Gad,

Beyond what I have shared in that regard already, I will refer you to a more extended consideration here:

http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.co ... -of-light/
i dont see anything there that addresses my question.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

DGA
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by DGA » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:37 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
bob wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:ok, so what is an "immortal spiritual being"? what is the ground of "immortal spiritual being"?
Hi Gad,

Beyond what I have shared in that regard already, I will refer you to a more extended consideration here:

http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.co ... -of-light/
i dont see anything there that addresses my question.
Or this topic. Or to DharmaWheel generally.
A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:45 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:i dont see anything there that addresses my question.
OK, fair enough. There is that which is still you, even when your body/mind/human personality complex drops off. Some call it soul, some call it spiritual being. Some have described it as a luminous orb, when gifted with a subtle sight capacity. It is immortal in the sense that it will not be subject to death, as is the human bio-vehicle.

In terms of "the ground", or "basis", "source", etc. -- we are not going to understand that, regardless of our terminology, because we are currently at the level of awareness where anything we could say would be mostly misleading, so I will remain silent in this case.

To your subsequent point, again, fair enough, I will refrain from further discussion, which was mostly addressing the topic of religious vs scientific understandings and so forth, and responding to questions members asked.

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gad rgyangs
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by gad rgyangs » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:55 pm

bob wrote: In terms of "the ground", or "basis", "source", etc. -- we are not going to understand that, regardless of our terminology, because we are currently at the level of awareness where anything we could say would be mostly misleading, so I will remain silent in this case.
bob, this is exactly what Dzogchen is about, pointing to this. Its not really a matter of "understanding" it (which would be conceptual, although that has its place in recognition too) or "saying" about it (also conceptual but has its place in pointing out for others) but, the living encounter with...... (not going to conceptualize or label).....what Dzogchen points out.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

bob
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by bob » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:08 am

gad rgyangs wrote:bob, this is exactly what Dzogchen is about, pointing to this. Its not really a matter of "understanding" it (which would be conceptual, although that has its place in recognition too) or "saying" about it (also conceptual but has its place in pointing out for others) but, the living encounter with...... (not going to conceptualize or label).....what Dzogchen points out.
Gad,

Thank you for your patience. Yes, I would agree that Dzogchen is at the pinnacle of current "spiritual" recognition in the human sphere. Nevertheless, at a certain point, you will find yourself regarding all human wisdom systems with amused tolerance, in the same way you would look at children in the playground pretending to be super-heroes. In any case, we work with what we are given -- it is all a gift!

Bless!

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gad rgyangs
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by gad rgyangs » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:22 am

bob wrote: Thank you for your patience. Yes, I would agree that Dzogchen is at the pinnacle of current "spiritual" recognition in the human sphere. Nevertheless, at a certain point, you will find yourself regarding all human wisdom systems with amused tolerance, in the same way you would look at children in the playground pretending to be super-heroes. In any case, we work with what we are given -- it is all a gift!
Although the historical phenomena called "Dzogchen" is a "human wisdom system", that-which-it-points-to is not, in the sense that it would be the same for any being, at any time, in any dimension, or even beyond time and dimension.

I know that may sound outrageous, but there it is. That-which-Dzogchen-points-to is not a being, it is the ground of any possible being.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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futerko
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Re: "...but the science of Buddhism will never change."

Post by futerko » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:22 am

bob wrote:
futerko wrote:oh dear. cleared for take off :alien:
Hi Futerko,

I am sure that you would be quite surprised to learn that you could be plucked off this globe and put down in thousands of other similar planets, and not even realize that you have left home, until you try to find your family and address (which will not be there). This galaxy alone is teeming with earth-type planets, and of course many other types which support life forms which would boggle your imagination. Don't take my word for it, however, since you will see for yourself soon enough. It really is an amazing universe. And btw, the are people practicing Dzogchen on other planets too, so there ya go!
:o
No Bob, nothing like that would surprise me in the least. What does surprise me though is the way you talk about it like some kind of "born again ufo'er", as if you are the only one who has seen the light and you so much want to share it with us, and yet you don't seem to be able to discern the seriously distorted picture you are painting and the reasons why Buddhism takes a different view.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

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