Death of the ego in this situation.

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hop.pala
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by hop.pala »

the sun and moon comes from the karma of the heavenly beings who were reborn out of heaven
It is so right.
Nothing happens without cause,creator-no way in Buddhism
The whole world produced by the creatures who inhabit.
muni
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by muni »

Everyting that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see. Martin Luther King, Jr.
By focussed habits on that what we think we are and that what we think others are, we miss the shared space in which all is playing. In the spacelike Mind all is embraced, while in my narrow individual mind I dearly protect my suffering.

This spacious mind is for me being free of ego, since to kill ego; I am lacking to see how. To kill the drop of the sea or to give/allow it back to the ocean. To kill the shadow of her tail is my cats’ job. Even I do the same somehow.
In the spacious Mind there is no wrong or right, since the spacious mind is not clinging, not suffering by its clinging. There is only Compassion and helping all to awaken. ( all is not solid phenomena) There goes my habit.
To awake cannot if own delusions are not seen, own delusions only. We don’t awake while keeping our habits.
These are my opinions ( which basis is deluded). I am deluded. And since I am deluded, how are you? Yes you there fool, I see you! :namaste:

Signed: ego. (entertaining itself) thinking to have to say something.

PS If help cannot, at least don't harm.
Simon E.
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Simon E. »

hop.pala wrote:
the sun and moon comes from the karma of the heavenly beings who were reborn out of heaven
It is so right.
Nothing happens without cause,creator-no way in Buddhism
The whole world produced by the creatures who inhabit.
So you actually believe that you have objective reality, but that the sun and moon do not ?

:crazy:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
hop.pala
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by hop.pala »

Simon E. wrote:
hop.pala wrote:
the sun and moon comes from the karma of the heavenly beings who were reborn out of heaven
It is so right.
Nothing happens without cause,creator-no way in Buddhism
The whole world produced by the creatures who inhabit.
So you actually believe that you have objective reality, but that the sun and moon do not ?

:crazy:

"No. 52.
A form seen from a distance
Is seen clearly by those nearby.
If a mirage were water,
Why is water not seen by those nearby?

No. 53.
The way this world is seen
As real by those afar
Is not so seen by those nearby
For whom it is signless like a mirage.

No. 54.
Just as a mirage is seemingly water
But not water and does not in fact exist [as water],
So the aggregates are seemingly a self
But not a self and do not exist in fact.

No. 55.
Having thought a mirage to be water
And then having gone there,
Someone would just be stupid to surmise,
"That water does not exist."

No. 56.
One who conceives of the mirage-like world
That it does or does not exist
Is consequently ignorant.
When there is ignorance, one is not liberated."
Nagarjuna

that is:
"Someone would just be stupid to surmise,
"That water does not exist."

(dependent arising,lack of independent existence and so on... for other explanation)
hop.pala
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by hop.pala »

I only wrote something.For any other explanation please turn to the moon and the sun :)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

hop.pala wrote:I only wrote something.For any other explanation please turn to the moon and the sun :)
You may have missed the meaning of those passages.
What Nagarjuna is explaining is that while it cannot be denied that appearances arise,
regardless of one's own perspective (near or far)
they have no self-nature.
So, depending on how you are looking at something,
it truly is as it appears, or it isn't.
but it's not completely one thing or the other.
the two do not neghate each other.

The Sun is a constantly changing ball of burning gases.
There is no intrinsic "essence of Sun" that it is made of,
and it is not really the same from moment to moment
So, there is no single thing that can be called "Sun"
So, to say "someone (or something) made the Sun" is nonsense.

Even though in relation to our own experience,
you might say, for our purposes, it appears as unchanging,
and has appeared to not change for billions of years,
so we can also say "it is the Sun" as though it is one unitary thing.
For our everyday purposes, this statement is accurate.

Likewise, we talk about the Sun rising or setting, which in fact it does not
and we talk about day and night as though they were actual things
when in fact these are not accurate, because night is merely a shadow that always covers part of the rotating Earth.
Day and night only appear as two separate things
because we are on the Earth's surface.
From outer space, all we see is a planet with a shadow over half of it.

How can people not know this stuff?

If you say, "everything was created, therefore something created the Sun and Moon"
then what created that creator, and what creator created that one, and on and on and on?

Planets occur because of conditions which do not require any awareness of them in order for them to form.
There is a lot that goes on all around us that there is no awareness of,
things that happen deep beneath the ground, so this simply concept should be too hard to grasp
even though it occurs on a relatively large scale.
I say relatively, because compared to some other stars in our galaxy,
our Sun is barely a spec.

Now, you may ask, 'if there is no awareness of them,
How do I know there is no awareness of them?"

But, as I have pointed out above, with the example of cancer,
we know because of the effects they produce.
For example, a Tsunami is caused by the movement of tectonic plates.
Unless one has the right instrument to detect certain earth movements,
one cannot know that these things are taking place, until it is too late and the wave hits.
Likewise, cancer can go through your body without you knowing about it until it is too late to treat it.

In other words, things can happen that there is no awareness of
and only when they cause other things to occur, can we look back
and realize that something had been brewing all along.

A thousand years ago, people didn't know as much about the universe as we do today.
they though the sun and moon were the same size, or were flat discs.
They though the universe has North, South East and West directions.
Today we know that there is nothing to show that is true.

And, as was clear to Nagarjuna,
people thought (and still think) that things are exactly what they appear to be,
that they only happen at this moment and are not the result of previous causes
or, that nothing can occur unless it is witnessed by somebody
...meaning that nothing occurs unless it is an object of awareness.

The belief that nothing occurs unless it is an object of awareness
is absolutely stupid
and a gross misunderstanding of the Dharma teachings.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
odysseus
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by odysseus »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: How can people not know this stuff?
Because all phenomena seems permanent and solid unless you apply discriminative wisdom. This is the common reality prior to closer investigation. Can´t blame anybody, really.

:|
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

odysseus wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote: How can people not know this stuff?
Because all phenomena seems permanent and solid unless you apply discriminative wisdom. This is the common reality prior to closer investigation. Can´t blame anybody, really.

Even most people who don't have discriminating wisdom have some access to the internet!
:tongue:

:|
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
hop.pala
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by hop.pala »

So, to say "someone (or something) made the Sun" is nonsense.
I dont think.Or not literally create,only dependent arised with the beings,ultimately it is only creation.Created through the collective karma.

Planets occur because of conditions which do not require any awareness of them in order for them to form.
As the being going under in the material,attracts according to karma astral and mental matter ect...therefore dominate-even unaware- the material,like as a jogi who can do it but no unaware.Avidja=creation.(samsara)
muni
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by muni »

Regarding the solidness of phenomena, I read once the difference between looking with two eyes and closing one softly with a finger:
Watch around, then close one eye and all appears as a flat screen of mind. Like watching space-tv. Then the experience I is weaker, thingnesses are not at all so solid anymore.
A joy of inner peace without listening the inner babbling radio, since mine turns without need of changing batteries.

Maybe it gives some insight in tricking/playing perception. May it be of any help.


o o :namaste:
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garudha
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by garudha »

muni wrote: Watch around, then close one eye and all appears as a flat screen of mind. Like watching space-tv. Then the experience I is weaker, thingnesses are not at all so solid anymore.
:thinking: I just tried closing one eye and everything looks the same to me.

Closing one eye does not make it less perfect, at least for me. There is no glitch in the matrix. Did you ever see a glitch? Are you saying that you can close one eye and perceive glitches? Hmmmm.. I really think there aren't any glitches and that's why sensible people don't believe in god. I don't blame them at all. Here's a good sentence so read it well; Manifested phenomena is spontaneously self-perfected and that's an amazing thing itself. I asked someone (who doesn't believe); "Isn't it amazing that we're here, right now, alive and talking?". They replied, "No not really,.. what's amazing about it all anyway?" :rolling:
muni
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by muni »

garudha wrote: I just tried closing one eye and everything looks the same to me.
:smile: As in equipoise no view, no difference sir.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

muni wrote:
garudha wrote: I just tried closing one eye and everything looks the same to me.
:smile: As in equipoise no view, no difference sir.
Try closing all three!
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by muni »

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
muni wrote:
garudha wrote: I just tried closing one eye and everything looks the same to me.
:smile: As in equipoise no view, no difference sir.
Try closing all three!
.
.
.
Okay.
It is possible to explain how view is appearing as our concepts but not possible to explain how such is not.

:smile:
Andrew108
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Andrew108 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Planets occur because of conditions which do not require any awareness of them in order for them to form.
There is a lot that goes on all around us that there is no awareness of,
things that happen deep beneath the ground, so this simply concept should be too hard to grasp
even though it occurs on a relatively large scale.
I say relatively, because compared to some other stars in our galaxy,
our Sun is barely a spec.

Now, you may ask, 'if there is no awareness of them,
How do I know there is no awareness of them?"

But, as I have pointed out above, with the example of cancer,
we know because of the effects they produce.
For example, a Tsunami is caused by the movement of tectonic plates.
Unless one has the right instrument to detect certain earth movements,
one cannot know that these things are taking place, until it is too late and the wave hits.
Likewise, cancer can go through your body without you knowing about it until it is too late to treat it.

In other words, things can happen that there is no awareness of
and only when they cause other things to occur, can we look back
and realize that something had been brewing all along.

A thousand years ago, people didn't know as much about the universe as we do today.
they though the sun and moon were the same size, or were flat discs.
They though the universe has North, South East and West directions.
Today we know that there is nothing to show that is true.

The belief that nothing occurs unless it is an object of awareness
is absolutely stupid
and a gross misunderstanding of the Dharma teachings.
.
.
.
I'm glad you posted this. So many people have the idea that there is no objective condition. Or that By suggesting that there is an objective condition you are somehow asserting permanence or that there are really existant 'things'.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
muni
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by muni »

The belief that nothing occurs unless it is an object of awareness
is absolutely stupid
and a gross misunderstanding of the Dharma teachings.
A thing seems to happen when mind grasps/gives attention to some thing/event.. only.

Stillness-movement. Never separate as there is thaught. Whether there is grasping mind or not.
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Grigoris
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Grigoris »

Saying that something exists regardless of awareness of it is the same as saying that it is self-existent. Like I said earlier: awareness of an object is one of the causes and conditions required for its existence. ONE OF THE...

Somebody here care to give me a scriptural reference that says otherwise?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Grigoris »

Andrew108 wrote:I'm glad you posted this. So many people have the idea that there is no objective condition. Or that By suggesting that there is an objective condition you are somehow asserting permanence or that there are really existant 'things'.
Can you please provide a reference for the existence of an "objective condition"? I know that the notion is put forward in Theravada Abhidhamma but Mahayana?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I think the Gelug version of Madhyamaka allows for apparent phenomena to have a conditional existence based on interdependence, but not self-existence.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Andrew108
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Re: Death of the ego in this situation.

Post by Andrew108 »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:I'm glad you posted this. So many people have the idea that there is no objective condition. Or that By suggesting that there is an objective condition you are somehow asserting permanence or that there are really existant 'things'.
Can you please provide a reference for the existence of an "objective condition"? I know that the notion is put forward in Theravada Abhidhamma but Mahayana?
You can look here - http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=417

An extract from this teaching on nature of mind by HHDL -

"The fact that our inner experiences of pleasure and pain are in the nature of subjective mental and cognitive states is very obvious to us. But how those inner subjective events relate to external circumstances and the material world poses a critical problem. The question of whether there is an external physical reality independent of sentient beings' consciousness and mind has been extensively discussed by Buddhist thinkers. Naturally, there are divergent views on this issue among the various philosophical schools of thought. One such school [Cittamatra] asserts that there is no external reality, not even external objects, and that the material world we perceive is in essence merely a projection of our minds. From many points of view, this conclusion is rather extreme. Philosophically, and for that matter conceptually, it seems more coherent to maintain a position that accepts the reality not only of the subjective world of the mind, but also of the external objects of the physical world."
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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