extibetanbuddhist dot com

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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kajibabu
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extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by kajibabu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:38 am

Does anybody know why this person sounds lady Christine Chandler self-labeled as extibetanbuddhist is crying so loud here? I did not find even the depth of study like another antagonist writing webpage "in the name of Dalai Lama"....
Babu, Nepal

KonchokZoepa
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by KonchokZoepa » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:40 am

I'm very interested to hear what kind of conversation this will cause on this forum. personally i can say after reading for 15 minutes that many things that the person says are quite factual, to a large extent, although presented from a limiting viewpoint in the sense that he is stamping all the lamas in the history of tibetan buddhism which is not true, but in this modern day, most lamas that come for tours, do empowerments to collect money to the monastery and there is lots of things off with tibetan buddhism today here in the west, it is not a working system currently. like the example of kalu rinpoches confession you can come to the conclusion that not all lamas , tulkus and rinpoches are corrupted and deceptive, but only some. and whatever elites in this world there are, they are obviously corrupted, i don't see why it couldn't be so in tibetan buddhism as well.

who knows about the clubs and CIA connection with the Dalai Lama.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo

JKhedrup
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by JKhedrup » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:58 am

While the occasional valid point is brought up, I found it difficult to read, it had the feeling of an intense and angry polemical diatribe rather than intelligent critique.

Even the headlines are sesationalized. I do give thw author credit for being fair- Theravada and Zen Budfhism also get a sharp tongue lashing

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Wayfarer
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:09 pm

'Ex Tibetan Buddhist' is vicious anti-religious polemics. I do feel for anybody who has been exploited and enslaved by cult religions, but I don't think that Tibetan Buddhism generally falls into that category. It is simply not a 'mind-control' cult in the way the Unification Church or Scientology is. People can make shackles out of anything, and can corrupt and pervert any kind of teaching, but that is not an inditement of Tibetan Buddhism generally.

See this snippet from the 'ex tibetan buddhist' site:
The Dalai Lama is a member of the Club of Budapest, a subsidiary of the Club of Rome, founded by David Rockefeller in 1968. The Club of Rome is a group of wealthy Malthusians, terrified of overpopulation and the masses that might turn on them for their own greed and exploitation of the world’s resources. Their main goal is to cut the world’s population significantly and using a Green Agenda of Fear is part of the plan.
Says who - the Koch brothers?
Last edited by Wayfarer on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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gad rgyangs
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by gad rgyangs » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:10 pm

of course some of what she is saying is true, but instead of blaming herself for being so gullible and childish, she lashes out at an entire tradition. Theres apparently plenty of exploitative lamas, and they attract those who want to be abused, its a symbiotic pathology. There are also great Lama/teacher/scholars who pass on the best of the tradition without exploiting anyone. They attract suitable students. This person is another whiny Tara Carreon all over again. Grow up and take responsibility for your decisions. If you spent decades giving your power over to some psycho-lama then just be glad you finally grew a brain cell and woke up and got out. Whose fault is it that it took you so long?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Sherlock
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:28 pm

Her criticism of the Dalai Lama's efforts to bridge science and Buddhism as being a conspiracy to brainwash Westerners and the Karmapa's "eco-efforts" as a front for Chinese spying is silly.

As for the other stuff like sexual abuse, some of it is probably justified I think, and deserves to be openly assessed. There is the issue of samaya for practitioners but I hope more openness and criticism would lead to these issues ending.

As Malcom posted somewhere, Buddhism's grace period in the West is ending. I think some of her arguments are accurate in that some rich sponsors have managed to influence the Western media to not give as much coverage to sexual abuses in Buddhism; that might change sooner or later. If Buddhism is to have a future in the West, it is best to end abuse before news of it spreads out widely.
Last edited by Sherlock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:30 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:of course some of what she is saying is true, but instead of blaming herself for being so gullible and childish, she lashes out at an entire tradition. Theres apparently plenty of exploitative lamas, and they attract those who want to be abused, its a symbiotic pathology. There are also great Lama/teacher/scholars who pass on the best of the tradition without exploiting anyone. They attract suitable students. This person is another whiny Tara Carreon all over again. Grow up and take responsibility for your decisions. If you spent decades giving your power over to some psycho-lama then just be glad you finally grew a brain cell and woke up and got out. Whose fault is it that it took you so long?
I think some would call that victim-shaming.

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florin
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by florin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:39 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:of course some of what she is saying is true, but instead of blaming herself for being so gullible and childish, she lashes out at an entire tradition. Theres apparently plenty of exploitative lamas, and they attract those who want to be abused, its a symbiotic pathology. There are also great Lama/teacher/scholars who pass on the best of the tradition without exploiting anyone. They attract suitable students. This person is another whiny Tara Carreon all over again. Grow up and take responsibility for your decisions. If you spent decades giving your power over to some psycho-lama then just be glad you finally grew a brain cell and woke up and got out. Whose fault is it that it took you so long?
A good example of exploitative lamas is Lama Tanpai Rinpoche who is very active in eastern Europe and claims to have a monastery in Nepal, Katmandu.But so far nobody could say with certainty where that monastery is located and who this man is.

http://www.omahhum.com/index.php?page=l ... #Monastery
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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gad rgyangs
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by gad rgyangs » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:46 pm

Sherlock wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:of course some of what she is saying is true, but instead of blaming herself for being so gullible and childish, she lashes out at an entire tradition. Theres apparently plenty of exploitative lamas, and they attract those who want to be abused, its a symbiotic pathology. There are also great Lama/teacher/scholars who pass on the best of the tradition without exploiting anyone. They attract suitable students. This person is another whiny Tara Carreon all over again. Grow up and take responsibility for your decisions. If you spent decades giving your power over to some psycho-lama then just be glad you finally grew a brain cell and woke up and got out. Whose fault is it that it took you so long?
I think some would call that victim-shaming.
doesnt the Tibetan tradition itself say that one should examine a teacher for a long time, even years, before trusting them? Does it sound like thats what she did? Who should be blamed for that immature behavior? The Dalai Lama? and shes supposed to be a mental health professional fer crissakes!
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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florin
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by florin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:47 pm

Some prayers composed by Master Tanpai Rinpoche :
Auspicious Prayer of Almighty Lord Jesus Christ
Auspicious Prayer of the Almighty Mother, the Virgin Mary
Auspicious Prayer of Almighty Allah and Mohammed
Auspicious Prayer of Almighty Jehovah
....

http://www.omahhum.com/index.php?page=d ... =eng#Jesus

:twothumbsup:
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Challenge23
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:21 pm

gad rgyangs wrote: doesnt the Tibetan tradition itself say that one should examine a teacher for a long time, even years, before trusting them? Does it sound like thats what she did? Who should be blamed for that immature behavior? The Dalai Lama? and shes supposed to be a mental health professional fer crissakes!
Examining someone for years isn't an adequate defense when you are dealing with the techniques that hostile new religious use as the longer you engage with them the more profoundly they affect you.

I'll give you an example. If you live anywhere other than certain areas of Europe(the Netherlands, primarily) the idea of using mayonaise on your french fries is most likely going to be really disgusting. If you were to go to one of those areas of Europe where they do that for a couple of days you would still find it disgusting. On the other hand if you lived in Amsterdam for a year or so you might find yourself wandering around Damrak with a cone filled with french fries slavered in mayo(please note, this is not speculation, it actually happened to me. I love french fries with mayo even to this day).

In the case of religions if you look at them initially you might dismiss them as crazy talk. However, if they hit you at a transitional time in your life and are intelligent enough to be open minded(the key demographic predatory religious sects go for) then you can believe almost anything. Getting involved with a predatory religious sect is less intellectual and more emotional and can happen to anyone regardless of intellect or care(look at the biographies of the people who died in Jonestown for numerous examples of this).
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

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gad rgyangs
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by gad rgyangs » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:33 pm

Challenge23 wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote: doesnt the Tibetan tradition itself say that one should examine a teacher for a long time, even years, before trusting them? Does it sound like thats what she did? Who should be blamed for that immature behavior? The Dalai Lama? and shes supposed to be a mental health professional fer crissakes!
Examining someone for years isn't an adequate defense when you are dealing with the techniques that hostile new religious use as the longer you engage with them the more profoundly they affect you.

I'll give you an example. If you live anywhere other than certain areas of Europe(the Netherlands, primarily) the idea of using mayonaise on your french fries is most likely going to be really disgusting. If you were to go to one of those areas of Europe where they do that for a couple of days you would still find it disgusting. On the other hand if you lived in Amsterdam for a year or so you might find yourself wandering around Damrak with a cone filled with french fries slavered in mayo(please note, this is not speculation, it actually happened to me. I love french fries with mayo even to this day).

In the case of religions if you look at them initially you might dismiss them as crazy talk. However, if they hit you at a transitional time in your life and are intelligent enough to be open minded(the key demographic predatory religious sects go for) then you can believe almost anything. Getting involved with a predatory religious sect is less intellectual and more emotional and can happen to anyone regardless of intellect or care(look at the biographies of the people who died in Jonestown for numerous examples of this).
so you're saying Tibetan Buddhism is a "hostile new religion"? or maybe its more like french fries?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

KonchokZoepa
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by KonchokZoepa » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:59 pm

jeeprs wrote:'Ex Tibetan Buddhist' is vicious anti-religious polemics. I do feel for anybody who has been exploited and enslaved by cult religions, but I don't think that Tibetan Buddhism generally falls into that category. It is simply not a 'mind-control' cult in the way the Unification Church or Scientology is. People can make shackles out of anything, and can corrupt and pervert any kind of teaching, but that is not an inditement of Tibetan Buddhism generally.

See this snippet from the 'ex tibetan buddhist' site:
The Dalai Lama is a member of the Club of Budapest, a subsidiary of the Club of Rome, founded by David Rockefeller in 1968. The Club of Rome is a group of wealthy Malthusians, terrified of overpopulation and the masses that might turn on them for their own greed and exploitation of the world’s resources. Their main goal is to cut the world’s population significantly and using a Green Agenda of Fear is part of the plan.
Says who - the Koch brothers?

mmm, I've actually seen pictures of Dalai Lama with Nazi chiefs and those leaders from some time period. Dalai Lama knowingly is doing a lot of business with the CIA, i don't wonder for one moment that he is not in close ties with the illuminati, and most probably this information she said is true about the club of budapest is true. anyhow commenting their real agendas and intentions is not a topic i would talk about without knowing for sure.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo

Sherlock
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:03 pm

At that time the Dalai Lama was a kid and the Tibetan aristocrats in Lhasa barely knew what was going on in China and India, their immediate neighbours, let alone what Nazi Germany was doing.

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Challenge23
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:16 pm

gad rgyangs wrote: so you're saying Tibetan Buddhism is a "hostile new religion"? or maybe its more like french fries?

So I have to go here.

Right then.

I'm not saying that Tibetan Buddhism is a predatory religious sect. What I am saying is that Tibetan Buddhism is a VERY large category and within that category there are some predatory religious sects and not only will taking your time in evaluating them not prevent you from detecting them, it actually makes it much more likely that you will become deeply involved with them.

I would even go so far as to say that the category of "Tibetan Buddhism" is way too broad to say it is "good", "bad", or almost anything else because you can find exceptions to almost any assertion.

However, what you can say is this.

In the collection of traditions commonly called "Tibetan Buddhism" there are some groups that could be considered predatory religious sects. These sects do not represent all or even most of Tibetan Buddhism. The process by which individuals join these sects have very little to do with rational analysis and everything to do with filling very specific emotional needs based on how recruiting happens for these sects.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:21 pm

I think that's actually quite fair.

Predatory groups exist within all religions, and clearly always have. The difference today of course is technology etc. make it much easier for such groups to recruit, as well as providing a direct link to the most vulnerable/exploitable people - who will generally be the people looking for cult-like situations, usually in an isolated environment.

That is not victim blaming, it is just true..typically the people most attracted to those kinds of setups IME are the same people who lack the skills to know when they are being taken advantage of, which of course makes them the prime demographic for recruitment.
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JKhedrup
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by JKhedrup » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:30 pm

Unfortunately unscrupulous types will misuse teachings on guru devotion to mislead people. That is part of the reason I approach things more academically these days.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:45 pm

I couldn't find this on her website, but does anyone know which particular "Lamaist cult" she belonged to?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Challenge23
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:19 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I think that's actually quite fair.

That is not victim blaming, it is just true..typically the people most attracted to those kinds of setups IME are the same people who lack the skills to know when they are being taken advantage of, which of course makes them the prime demographic for recruitment.
Actually that isn't quite true. When you look at the profiles of people who end up belonging to predatory religious sects(I would have researched them for a living if there was any money in it, I've studied them for well over a decade now) was not related to education or skills(there was a wide variety of skill sets and levels of learning and experience).

The primary link is that the vast majority of people who are involved with PRS at the time of recruitment were in a transitional life phase. Students who just got out of school, divorcees, people with children that moved out recently, people who lost their jobs, etc. Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

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dzogchungpa
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Challenge23 wrote:Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
That sounds like a pretty good defense against authentic Buddhism too.
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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