extibetanbuddhist dot com

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Challenge23
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:35 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Challenge23 wrote:Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
That sounds like a pretty good defense against authentic Buddhism too.

Quite true. The reason for that is that transitional life phases are also how people move from a pre-existing belief system to a new belief system, Buddhism included. It is a paradox that I don't have a solution for, I'm afraid.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

pensum
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by pensum » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:25 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:I couldn't find this on her website, but does anyone know which particular "Lamaist cult" she belonged to?
I found the fact that she doesn't provide any specifics of her own situation rather suspicious as well. She tends to make broad conspiratorial accusations without any facts to back them up, and when she does she often doesn't have her facts right, for example Daniel Goleman does not consider Sogyal Rinpoche his guru nor Rigpa his sangha.

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dharmagoat
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dharmagoat » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:57 pm

If Christine A. Chandler could separate fact from emotion there might be something to discuss.

She has quite clearly been hurt by her time as a Tibetan Buddhist. Something many of us can relate too.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:03 pm

Challenge23 wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I think that's actually quite fair.

That is not victim blaming, it is just true..typically the people most attracted to those kinds of setups IME are the same people who lack the skills to know when they are being taken advantage of, which of course makes them the prime demographic for recruitment.
Actually that isn't quite true. When you look at the profiles of people who end up belonging to predatory religious sects(I would have researched them for a living if there was any money in it, I've studied them for well over a decade now) was not related to education or skills(there was a wide variety of skill sets and levels of learning and experience).

The primary link is that the vast majority of people who are involved with PRS at the time of recruitment were in a transitional life phase. Students who just got out of school, divorcees, people with children that moved out recently, people who lost their jobs, etc. Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
By "skills" I meant a variety of things, not a specific program of education or something.
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by ovi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:04 pm

When you have a religious institution supported by the rulers, it is going to become part of the ruling class and it will have the same goals of perpetuating itself. The 14th Dalai Lama agrees that a high position makes exploitation possible.
It’s true. I am also an exploiter. I hold the position of a high monk, a big lama. Unless I exercise self-restraint, there is every possibility for me to exploit others.

On my first visit to Mongolia, they arranged a tour to various institutions and a museum. At the museum, I saw a drawing of a lama with a huge mouth, eating up the people. This was in 1979, when Mongolia was still a Communist country. The Communists said that religion was a drug, and every religious institution was an exploiter. Even monks were exploiters. Even donations distributed to the monastic community were considered to be a form of exploitation.

When I came to the spot with that picture, the officials were a little bit nervous. I deliberately looked at it and I said, “It’s true.” Of course, I agree. I am not only a socialist but also a bit leftist, a communist. In terms of social economy theory, I am a Marxist. I think I am farther to the left than the Chinese leaders. [Bursts out laughing.] They are capitalists. [Laughs again.]
He's also considering to be the last Dalai Lama, he retired from his political responsibilities which were transfered to the next elected leaders of the Central Tibetan Administration/Tibetan Government in exile, whose role itself isn't to take power in Tibet in the future, but will be dissolved as soon as Tibet is free. The whole idea of an ongoing Dalai Lama conspiracy is non-sense. The writer is also a nationalist and individualist (opposing Buddhist communitarianism).

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dzogchungpa
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:50 pm

If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Challenge23
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:23 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Challenge23 wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I think that's actually quite fair.

That is not victim blaming, it is just true..typically the people most attracted to those kinds of setups IME are the same people who lack the skills to know when they are being taken advantage of, which of course makes them the prime demographic for recruitment.
Actually that isn't quite true. When you look at the profiles of people who end up belonging to predatory religious sects(I would have researched them for a living if there was any money in it, I've studied them for well over a decade now) was not related to education or skills(there was a wide variety of skill sets and levels of learning and experience).

The primary link is that the vast majority of people who are involved with PRS at the time of recruitment were in a transitional life phase. Students who just got out of school, divorcees, people with children that moved out recently, people who lost their jobs, etc. Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
By "skills" I meant a variety of things, not a specific program of education or something.
In that case I concede your point and apologize for my misunderstanding.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

pensum
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by pensum » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:58 pm

Ah, so she was a student of Tsoknyi Rinpoche.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Adi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:14 pm

kajibabu wrote:Does anybody know why this person sounds lady Christine Chandler self-labeled as extibetanbuddhist is crying so loud here? I did not find even the depth of study like another antagonist writing webpage "in the name of Dalai Lama"....
A possible explanation is that one's thoughts become rudra when negative thoughts become reality due to the evil projections of ego being expressed outwardly, which causes suffering without reason. It is sad that such things are being broadcast to other confused and deranged people and thus increasing suffering. One of the signs of having unresolved problems in oneself is that one starts to see them everywhere else and thinks they are the root of so many other people's problems, especially conspiracies.

I can only imagine how such a person suffers, giving life to their own inner torment by making it seem real outside in the world. :(

Adi

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Soap-Bubble » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:16 pm

The page does bring up a lot of interesting things to discuss.

What do you all think of slavery in the land with so many enlightened people? As well as smaller stuff that follows in the same way of "superiority thinking", like discrimination of women, etc. I remember that topic worrying me before, in context of Indian buddhism and its caste system and blatant prejudices, too, but there was one Buddha and he was soon gone, so ok, he couldn't do much even if he wanted to. However, a land governed by supposedly hordes of the enlightened people for centuries, why didn't they show compassion and love to their own people? Do we have to think that all of them were corrupt people looking for power and only a handful of other individuals with little political power were enlightened? Or does it mean that enlightenment is something else than we imagine, and values like freedom and equality, as well as providing down to earth things like accessible medicine and other simple commodities, have little to do with bodhicitta? That's something I don't have an adequate answer for up to this day.
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dharmagoat » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:20 pm

Adi wrote:I can only imagine how such a person suffers, giving life to their own inner torment by making it seem real outside in the world. :(
I believe there is some reality behind what she is describing, but there is a lot of indiscriminate striking out too.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:13 am

mmm, I've actually seen pictures of Dalai Lama with Nazi chiefs and those leaders from some time period.
Hitler sent people into Tibet with some sort of weird agenda about proving Aryan racial superiority. I forget the details.
Dalai Lama knowingly is doing a lot of business with the CIA
As China was taking over Tibet the U.S. was well aware of it. The State Dept. couldn't do anything because of complicated politics. The CIA however could, and did. When the **** hit the fan and the Tibetans that could make it out landed in India, the situation was desperate. There were some marginal relief efforts for the refugees, but not much. The CIA had money and HHDL took it. I don't blame him. His brother however, was into coordinating with the CIA in regards to guerrilla warfare. HHDL is a pacifist. His brother, however, is not.
i don't wonder for one moment that he is not in close ties with the illuminati, and most probably this information she said is true about the club of budapest is true. anyhow commenting their real agendas and intentions is not a topic i would talk about without knowing for sure.
No comment.
What do you all think of slavery in the land with so many enlightened people?
Tibet was a feudal society with a peasant class that farmed the fields of the monasteries, etc. However slavery, as in one man is another man's property without any rights, wasn't in any of the stories from the various European explorers that I have read.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by pensum » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:42 am

What do you all think of slavery in the land with so many enlightened people?
smcj wrote:Tibet was a feudal society with a peasant class that farmed the fields of the monasteries, etc. However slavery, as in one man is another man's property without any rights, wasn't in any of the stories from the various European explorers that I have read.
Yes, not slaves, but serfs.

For insights into the actual social and political conditions in Tibet i highly recommend A History of Modern Tibet by Melvyn Goldstein (http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520075900 as well as Tsering Shakya's Dragon in the Land of Snows (http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231- ... d-of-snows). Both of which provide ample evidence to disabuse one of any notion that Tibet was an enlightened society.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by TaTa » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:43 am

This seems like a good place to put this
http://www.videoneat.com/documentaries/ ... ee-online/

Documentary about someone you is a fake guru and how people react.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by JKhedrup » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:48 am

I recommend Kumare as a must watch for anyone considering entering a guru-disciple relationship.

As for Tibet it was a premodern feudal society with all that entails. It also preserved a worthy treasure- the Dharma, in a very rich form.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:49 am

Adi wrote: A possible explanation is that one's thoughts become rudra when negative thoughts become reality due to the evil projections of ego being expressed outwardly, which causes suffering without reason. It is sad that such things are being broadcast to other confused and deranged people and thus increasing suffering. One of the signs of having unresolved problems in oneself is that one starts to see them everywhere else and thinks they are the root of so many other people's problems, especially conspiracies.
That is one possible scenario. Basically if one has a good lama and flips out, that is what is happening. The negativity is coming from the student. However there are a lot of less than ideal scenarios going on too where the b.s. is real. Being able to discern the difference is very tricky.

The current TB landscape is like walking through a minefield in some ways. I have been lucky to have avoided stepping on one, however I've seen others that have been harmed. In the future I believe some standardized parameters will eventually come into play that will make the overall situation less sketchy, but that's just my opinion.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Soap-Bubble » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:43 am

pensum wrote:Yes, not slaves, but serfs.
That's not even better :thinking:

Thanks for the links, I'll check the books out if I can get them here.
JKhedrup wrote:As for Tibet it was a premodern feudal society with all that entails.
The question is: why did enlightenment change nothing in society? I mean, can you imagine an enlightened being who is prejudiced and considers some people beneathe him or her? I know I can't.
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Sherlock » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:51 pm

One of the Dalai Lama's brothers who participated in the CIA operations now regrets it IIRC and he married a Chinese woman and speaks Mandarin himself. Not sure if he was allowed back into PRC but he helped out with some relief efforts during the 2008 earthquake.

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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Soap-Bubble wrote:What do you all think of slavery in the land with so many enlightened people?
Speaking of Buddhism and slavery:

Jonathan Silk's entry on Slavery in "The Encyclopedia of Buddhism":
http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com ... lavery.pdf

Michael Jerryson's entry on Buddhism and Antislavery in "The Encyclopedia of Antislavery and Abolition":
http://www.academia.edu/3792910/Buddhis ... ntislavery
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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smcj
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:14 pm

Soap-Bubble wrote:
pensum wrote:Yes, not slaves, but serfs.
That's not even better :thinking:
Yes it is. They could move somewhere else, marry who they want, and even join the "oppressive" monastery if they so chose.
JKhedrup wrote:
As for Tibet it was a premodern feudal society with all that entails.
The question is: why did enlightenment change nothing in society? I mean, can you imagine an enlightened being who is prejudiced and considers some people beneathe him or her? I know I can't.
As a thought experiment, try to describe something better, considering:
1. It was a pre-modern society in Asia.
2. It was little more than subsistence level living, with anything additional going towards the highest aspirations of man.

Personally I find truly offensive the fact that the man who penned that "all men are created equal" is a self-evident truth owned slaves, one of which he used for sex. Plus, given the genocide of the native Americans, personally I find the hypocrisy of the social perspective far worse than the society it is criticizing.

That's not to say I do not appreciate America and it's contribution to the entire world in the last 200 years. In the same vein Tibet may yet be recognized for its contribution-- but only if this hand off to the West works.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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