Validity of recorded empowerments

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Malcolm
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:36 am

anjali wrote:When Rinpoche is no longer in the body, will future generations of practitioners also be able to receive empowerments from the authorized recordings?
It would certainly be cheaper than having to train living teachers...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by conebeckham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:56 pm

I mean no disrespect, but that is a very good question, actually. I don't think it's a question that can be asked without some sort of "disrespect" however.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

smcj
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:59 pm

If the answer is "yes" it is a total game-changer.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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conebeckham
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by conebeckham » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:06 pm

smcj wrote:If the answer is "yes" it is a total game-changer.
Indeed. Though it may come with the proviso that "This only applies to authorized recorded empowerments from such-and-such a Lama, to students of that lama, etc."

And again, I mean no disrespect.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Grigoris
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:08 pm

It is a good question and one that needs to be made to Garchen Rinpoche himself lest we indulge in another 6 pages of conceptual proliferation! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:19 pm

All these questions arise due to our failure to recognize the nature and function of the videokaya.

:sage:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:All these questions arise due to our failure to recognize the nature and function of the videokaya.

:sage:

More importantly, they arise due to our failure to understand the essence of the interdhātu.

:buddha1:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:All these questions arise due to our failure to recognize the nature and function of the videokaya.

:sage:

More importantly, they arise due to our failure to understand the essence of the interdhātu.

:buddha1:
Indeed.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:31 pm

You guys are sumpin' else. :thinking:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Grigoris
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:42 pm

Don't you guys have some Dharmapala practices to do today, or something? The devil makes work for idle hands you know? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by supermaxv » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:03 pm

conebeckham wrote:I mean no disrespect, but that is a very good question, actually. I don't think it's a question that can be asked without some sort of "disrespect" however.
I mentioned this debate to one of my gurus the other day, and when we were talking about the validity of previously recorded empowerments over the Internet was thinking / out loud (without coming to or telling me his conclusion) about this all would go - would this mean that a previously recorded empowerment delivered (well after the fact) over a video tape, thumb drive or a CD / DVD be equally valid as well? Again, all potentially game changing?

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by anjali » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:15 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:It is a good question and one that needs to be made to Garchen Rinpoche himself lest we indulge in another 6 pages of conceptual proliferation! :tongue:
Indeed! Perhaps someone will ask before we become too prolific. ;)
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by anjali » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
anjali wrote:When Rinpoche is no longer in the body, will future generations of practitioners also be able to receive empowerments from the authorized recordings?
It would certainly be cheaper than having to train living teachers...
It would. Who knows, maybe it's just a sign of this being the Dharma-ending age, with ever-fewer qualified teachers. (If one believes this is the Dharma-ending age.) There came a time when the Buddha's teachings had to be written down. Perhaps now we live in a time when great masters have to record empowerments, etc. for the benefit of future generations of practioners. All just speculation, of course. ;)
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by pueraeternus » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:55 am

anjali wrote:There came a time when the Buddha's teachings had to be written down.
That would be passe. In the future, tertons would hide termas in the World of Warcraft, or maybe some obscure corner of Ultima Online.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Malcolm
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:13 am

pueraeternus wrote:
anjali wrote:There came a time when the Buddha's teachings had to be written down.
That would be passe. In the future, tertons would hide termas in the World of Warcraft, or maybe some obscure corner of Ultima Online.

dude, Halo...come on...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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pueraeternus
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by pueraeternus » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
anjali wrote:There came a time when the Buddha's teachings had to be written down.
That would be passe. In the future, tertons would hide termas in the World of Warcraft, or maybe some obscure corner of Ultima Online.

dude, Halo...come on...
I am more traditional, you see. :tongue:
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:24 am

Torchlight and Borderlands both have pretty amazing loot generators which could prove useful for terma revelation. Just sayin...
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Anders » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:All these questions arise due to our failure to recognize the nature and function of the videokaya.

:sage:

More importantly, they arise due to our failure to understand the essence of the interdhātu.

:buddha1:
:lol:

Seriously though, the sutras tell us of buddha fields where the dharma is taught through scents, lights, sights, telepathy, and so forth.

So the interdhatu comes along and changes the rules of how it is possible to communicate in this buddha-field for a while - Is it really that improbable that new rules mean new opportunities for mahasattvas to do their thang?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:05 am

Anders wrote:So the interdhatu comes along and changes the rules of how it is possible to communicate in this buddha-field for a while - Is it really that improbable that new rules mean new opportunities for mahasattvas to do their thang?
I think you will find that it's already happening.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Post by kirtu » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:16 am

Anders wrote: Seriously though, the sutras tell us of buddha fields where the dharma is taught through scents, lights, sights, telepathy, and so forth.

So the interdhatu comes along and changes the rules of how it is possible to communicate in this buddha-field for a while - Is it really that improbable that new rules mean new opportunities for mahasattvas to do their thang?
In your examples the Mahasattvas were actively teaching with their minds (ignoring the fact that they don't actually have minds ... :reading:). The point is that they were actively involved. An external viewer would say there was transmission involved from active intentionality.

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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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