Dharma protectors and samaya

[T. Chokyi]

But i think y'all missing the point, it wasn't a crayfish!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo

[DGA]

Curious about some opinions on this statement:

"Hello,

My name is Pema Khandro and I first heard of Traktung Rinpoche when a friend of mine wrote to Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche about him. Dungse Rinpoche is the son of Dudjom Rinoche and one of the highest Nyingma Lamas alive - and Traktung Rinpoche's root lama. My friend received a letter back from Dungse Rinpoche's assistant, saying that Traktung Rinpoche (referring to him as Rinpoche) was an excellent teacher of pure Dharma and had Dungse Rinpoche's complete blessing. Later, 3 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be at Pema Osel Ling, teaching seat of Tharchin Rinpoche, when Traktung Rinpoche was there for private teachings with Thinley Norbu Rinpoche and the three year retreat people. Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche had Traktung Rinpoche sit on a small throne - the only other person not sitting on the floor was Dungse Rinpoche himself. The Tibetan Lamas of Pema Osel Ling offered Traktung Rinpoche katas and all referred to him as 'Rinpoche'. In a public tsog feast Traktung Rinpoche was given a public place of honor by Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, and Dungse Rinpoche spoke of him to the gathered group - again referring to him as 'Rinpoche' and saying he was very courageous in upholding 'pure dharma'. Later in the evening Thinley Norbu Rinpoche said 'I love Traktung Rinpoche very sincerely from my heart.'

Last year I was at Pema Oself Ling when Traktung Rinpoche came to visit Tharchin Rinpoche. Again he was treated with great respect. When he insisted on prostrating to Tharchin Rinpoche, Tharchin Rinpoche also prostrated to him. Tharchin Rinpoche also had all the three year retreat people offer katas to Traktung Rinpoche and he spoke of Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche's respect for Traktung Rinpoche. Tharchin Rinpoche is coming to teach at Traktung Rinpoche's center Tspogyelgar this summer and offering the Dudjom Tersar Three Roots Empowerments. I have also seen the long life prayer wirtten by the Tibetan Nyingma Lama Orgyen Tanzin Rinpoche which explains Traktung Rinpoche as the tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje, a high lama from the Golok region of Tibet. Lama Tanzin Rinpoche is a direct student of Dudjom Rinpoche and Dungse Rinpoche. I have also spoken with Hamta Tulku Lama Yonton a high Geluk and Nyingmapa tulku from Golok who confirmed this recognition for me again.

I have now heard Traktung Rinpoche speak several times in Germany and also listened to his talks on Vajrayana on the internet. His knowledge of Vajrayana is astounding - especially in the area of the yogic traditions of 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, Longchenpa's commentary on Guyagharba and the works of Dudjom Rinpoche. His knowledge of the subtle aspects of the stages of the path in Kagyu and Nyingmapa traditions is profound. Also his knowledge of world religions, he has a degree in comparative religion, is amazing. I know from some of Traktung Rinpoche's students that he refuses to allow any students of his to ever defend him against attacks. Traktung Rinpoche never charges for Dharma teachings and currently also does not accept students. Traktung Rinpoche himself is very humble and makes light of his 'recognition' often refusing to allow anyone around him to call him 'Rinpoche' He refuses to 'post certificates' - he says that since he does not accept students he prefers people to simply evaluate his words in their own right by comparing them to pure dharma sources - as the Buddha suggested. Still it is good to be careful spreading any negative gossips about sublime beings so I have written this little bit which I know first hand about Traktung Rinpoche to help clarify this matter.

Sncerely, Pema Khandro"

http://www.dharmaling.org/forums/index. ... 284&page=2

Same Pema Khandro, or different?

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16819



It would be remarkable if any of those claims were verified.

(ps sorry for bumping this old thread, I just remembered that detail and thought I'd get around to marking it)

[Adamantine]

I believe this same question came up in some other thread and the original link is now broken, but I recall that this woman's quoted post preceded Kali Ma's name change to Pema Khandro. She started out teaching as Kali Ma, then "Troma Rinpoche" and finally shifted to Pema Khandro. Pema Khandro was a rather late name for her, in her ongoing name-transformations. I may have missed a couple. So chronologically it doesn't map out for it to be the same woman, according to my own memory.

[Malcolm]

I believe this same question came up in some other thread and the original link is now broken, but I recall that this woman's quoted post preceded Kali Ma's name change to Pema Khandro. She started out teaching as Kali Ma, then "Troma Rinpoche" and finally shifted to Pema Khandro. Pema Khandro was a rather late name for her, in her ongoing name-transformations. I may have missed a couple. So chronologically it doesn't map out for it to be the same woman, according to my own memory.

Unless it was a personal nick she was using at the time.

[Adamantine]

I believe this same question came up in some other thread and the original link is now broken, but I recall that this woman's quoted post preceded Kali Ma's name change to Pema Khandro. She started out teaching as Kali Ma, then "Troma Rinpoche" and finally shifted to Pema Khandro. Pema Khandro was a rather late name for her, in her ongoing name-transformations. I may have missed a couple. So chronologically it doesn't map out for it to be the same woman, according to my own memory.

Unless it was a personal nick she was using at the time.

Sure, possibly, but Pema Khandro is not really an unusual name. . . so I'd say it's more likely not the same. Doesn't really seem like the same writing style to me either.

[Kelwin]

North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.

Hi, and which one for Europe please? thanks

Pramoha

Malcolm, this is an old post, but could you elaborate a bit? As far as I know Pramoha is part of the Shitro mandala, and usually not considered a local protector? Is there anywhere I can find more about her being related to Europe?

Thank you!

[Malcolm]

Malcolm, this is an old post, but could you elaborate a bit? As far as I know Pramoha is part of the Shitro mandala, and usually not considered a local protector? Is there anywhere I can find more about her being related to Europe?

Thank you!

It is a name for Dorje Yudronma.

[HAR]

malcolm, how do you know which protector is for which region?

please, can you tell for south east asia (indonesia)?

thanks

[theanarchist]

I'd say that regarding Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche: yes I've also learned from close disciples of
his how fond he was of Traktung Rinpoche. So I'd assume all the rest of that account is factual.

Now,

Some lamas are really fond of disturbed people. You know, putting the phrase from the bodhisattva teachings into practice where it says, that people with strong negativity should be treated like a rare and precious treasure etc (don't know the exact words), praising their qualities etc.

'So that he publicly shows fondness doesn't have to mean much in terms of their actual dharma qualifications.

What I learned about Tibetan lamas is, do not always take what they say or do literally. There are sometimes many layers of hidden intention and meaning.

[Adamantine]

I'd say that regarding Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche: yes I've also learned from close disciples of
his how fond he was of Traktung Rinpoche. So I'd assume all the rest of that account is factual.

Now,

Some lamas are really fond of disturbed people. You know, putting the phrase from the bodhisattva teachings into practice where it says, that people with strong negativity should be treated like a rare and precious treasure etc (don't know the exact words), praising their qualities etc.

'So that he publicly shows fondness doesn't have to mean much in terms of their actual dharma qualifications.

What I learned about Tibetan lamas is, do not always take what they say or do literally. There are sometimes many layers of hidden intention and meaning.

Came across this old thread and must have missed this reply at the time. To reply now: merely being fond of someone is quite a bit different from referring to them as “precious one” and announcing to large gatherings of disciples that the person “is an upholder of pure dharma”. As I said, I’ve learned similar things from Dungse TNR’s inner circle and even attended a rare teaching once in New York with Traktung Rinpoche at the strong urges of a Vajra sibling who was a close disciple of TNR who explained their close connection. I do believe this account since it corresponds to what I’ve learned. It’s clear that we are discussing more than simple fondness. I also happen to enjoy Traktung Rinpoche’s dharma poetry which has a Rumi like flavor.

[Rinchen Dorje]

Found this article which might shed some light for some people:
http://www.crazywisdomjournal.com/featu ... otus-farms

[kirtu]

Found this article which might shed some light for some people:
http://www.crazywisdomjournal.com/featu ... otus-farms

Okay. From one perspective that was good propaganda. They probably know sustainable farming very well and that is useful although their practice doesn't seem to go beyond needless suffering because it is clearly tied to economic exchange. They are probably sincere. Coming from several wisdom traditions (being generous here with Rajneesh) they seem sincere and seem to have purified some of their obscurations.

Here's something:

But it is important to understand that in Vajrayana, anyone may decide to become a teacher. It is understood that one’s qualities as a teacher — if they are real — will bring students and create a sangha.

Well, no, not exactly. This is partially true and can be seen as true for sutra but tantra and particularly empowerment is a different matter. Milarepa for example apparently sent students to other teachers for empowerments.

However, it says really nothing about any real vestment or endorsement of HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche (in fact that article doesn't even mention him directly). Have I missed something?

Kirt


Mod note 2024: The thread ist being licked due to it's age and because quite a bunch of participants are no longer present at DW. Therefore it is not possible to discuss with them here.