Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

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TaTa
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Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by TaTa » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:36 am

Nice documentary.
phpBB [video]


If somone thinks that this should be in the media section feel free to move it. I think here is nicer.

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kajibabu
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by kajibabu » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:58 pm

TaTa wrote:Nice documentary.
phpBB [video]


If somone thinks that this should be in the media section feel free to move it. I think here is nicer.

The presenter (Benoy Behl) looks very soft and with beautiful voice, but far away from essence of Buddhist ethics he has distorted the fact of Gautama's birthplace which to be in present day Nepal (which has already declared by UNICEF), he deliberately mentions of Uttar Pradesh India. I wish I would be wrong to label him with truly the colonial mind as British left over to them.... There is another fact great Emperor Ashoka who spread Buddha Dharma all over present day India and beyond, verified the Birthplace of Lord Gautama Buddha erecting a historical pillar which is still there in Lumbini, present day Nepal. Likewise, he also overlooks to mention Nepal as one of the major countries to Practice Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism which is present day reality (he just skips to mention Nepal but to jump from India to Tibet to Mongolia and others. Only once he mentioned about Nepal that one Tibetan King married Nepali princess in 7th century. There is no doubt India is great place for Buddhism with many great Siddhas, Universities and Buddha spread Dharma in present day NOrthern India (Before British colony, there is no name of India in history, only Bharat). This does n;ot mean you overlook or distort other facts as well.... Just I can feel sorry for this guy's inherited colonial mindset .... Sorry for using such language...
Babu, Nepal

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Zhen Li
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Zhen Li » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:33 am

I saw this a few months ago and I also had the same impression. This is really state propaganda for the Indian government, using a very selective version of Buddhism to enhance their image as a perfect utopian spiritual paradise. If I recall correctly, I only heard them mention Nepal once! No mention of the persecutions of Buddhists by the Brahmin elite from the earliest times either. Buddhism is thus made into a commodity that "belongs" to the modern nation state of "India." Also, I should add that the image painted of the influence of Indian Buddhism on Tibetan Buddhism is very much biased towards the Gelukpa side of things. Not every great Buddhist tradition is Indian in origin.

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:18 am

Tibetan Buddhism is the closest to what was practiced in India, hence the common scholarly term "Indo-Tibetan".

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:24 am

Zhen Li wrote:No mention of the persecutions of Buddhists by the Brahmin elite from the earliest times either.
Even if there was persecution, it would have been one group of Indians against another group of Indians.....

So your hate against Indians makes no sense. :coffee:
Last edited by ConradTree on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:26 am

Zhen Li wrote:Not every great Buddhist tradition is Indian in origin.
Depends on what you mean by "tradition" and "origin".
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

ConradTree
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:39 am

kajibabu wrote: The presenter (Benoy Behl) looks very soft and with beautiful voice, but far away from essence of Buddhist ethics he has distorted the fact of Gautama's birthplace which to be in present day Nepal (which has already declared by UNICEF), he deliberately mentions of Uttar Pradesh India. I wish I would be wrong to label him with truly the colonial mind as British left over to them.... There is another fact great Emperor Ashoka who spread Buddha Dharma all over present day India and beyond, verified the Birthplace of Lord Gautama Buddha erecting a historical pillar which is still there in Lumbini, present day Nepal. Likewise, he also overlooks to mention Nepal as one of the major countries to Practice Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism which is present day reality (he just skips to mention Nepal but to jump from India to Tibet to Mongolia and others. Only once he mentioned about Nepal that one Tibetan King married Nepali princess in 7th century. There is no doubt India is great place for Buddhism with many great Siddhas, Universities and Buddha spread Dharma in present day NOrthern India (Before British colony, there is no name of India in history, only Bharat). This does n;ot mean you overlook or distort other facts as well.... Just I can feel sorry for this guy's inherited colonial mindset .... Sorry for using such language...
Mahayana and Vajrayana developed in South India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana#E ... .C5.ABtras" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ronald Davidson calls the Krishna River valley "a site of extraordinary Buddhist activity for almost a thousand years."

Nepal or north India has nothing to do with anything.

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Zhen Li
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Zhen Li » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:05 am

ConradTree wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:No mention of the persecutions of Buddhists by the Brahmin elite from the earliest times either.
Even if there was persecution, it would have been one group of Indians against another group of Indians.....

So your hate against Indians makes no sense. :coffee:
You have to be incapable of logical reasoning to be able to draw the conclusion that I have any hate against "Indians." Please reread what I wrote before you start throwing nonsense accusations around.
ConradTree wrote:Nepal or north India has nothing to do with anything.
Sorry, but you have just displayed that you have no scholastic credibility.
Malcolm wrote:Depends on what you mean by "tradition" and "origin".
Quite true.
:anjali:

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:42 am

:roll:

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Huseng » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:31 am

Zhen Li wrote:Buddhism is thus made into a commodity that "belongs" to the modern nation state of "India."
The Indian support of modern Buddhism, be it Ladakhi, Tibetan or Theravada in Bihar and in the east, has political motivations that translate into effective policies the bolster Indian legitimacy and project soft power. For instance, the Dalai Lama's summer residence is conveniently located outside Leh in Ladakh. There's also a Tibetan resettlement community there, plus an enormous college for Tibetan Buddhist Studies (paid for by the Indian state). On top of that the Indian military provides free water, electricity and maintenance to Shanti Peace Stupa up on the hill overlooking Leh. All of this was clearly used to bolster the Buddhist presence in a part of the country that has had the potential to favor Pakistan.

Aligning Buddhist interests with those of the Indian state means a lot of Buddhists outside the country will favor India over Pakistan and China (just look at all the hate directed at China over the Tibet issue despite the fact India is a country run by thieves and gangsters guilty of many of the same sins as China). It is in their interests to have the Free Tibet movement hosted primarily by India as it makes them look like a benevolent democracy helping innocent victims of tyranny. Other democracies have a moral obligation to support India the "largest democracy in the world" to some extent.

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Zhen Li » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:42 am

Quite true.

It's all very intelligent actually. China could learn a thing or two about making the world look more favourably on them. But I really see little reason for favouring one over the other in affairs political as well as religious; both India and China are responsible for the violent take over of Buddhist kingdoms on their borders.

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Huseng » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:23 am

Zhen Li wrote: It's all very intelligent actually. China could learn a thing or two about making the world look more favourably on them. But I really see little reason for favouring one over the other in affairs political as well as religious; both India and China are responsible for the violent take over of Buddhist kingdoms on their borders.
After living in India/Nepal for a few years, and having visited China, I am actually more positively inclined towards China. The Chinese leadership has displayed awful levels of corruption and nepotism, but they at least got stuff done over the last few decades like building essential infrastructure and providing education, sanitation and rule of law. China has a dark recent past, but it is slowly coming to terms with it. Xi Jinping is also starting to put the foot down on corruption, which is incidentally hurting GDP because black money isn't being spent on consumer products as much as before.

This is in stark contrast to much of India where after decades of independence from British Rule they still don't have basic sanitation and rule of law. Delhi despite being the capital city of a country with atomic weapons can't keep the lights on 24/7. During the summer there are constant blackouts. There's also huge problems with basic policing in that city. Generally the city is an unhygienic dump. Supermarkets commonly sell expired and damaged food products. Even the posh area of town is littered with rubbish, feces and crumbling cement. Compare that to Beijing or Shanghai where the streets are tidy and women can generally walk safely in the streets in the evening alone, to say nothing of the fact that health departments are actually in operation!

I have a Nepalese friend who studied in China. He said with respect to Nepal and India, "If this is what you get, then %%%% democracy!" He has a point. Democracy clearly doesn't work in India. It hasn't created a better, more just society. India is just as predatory as China. At least in the case of China the citizens actually get something out of an autocratic state.

So, if the well-being of people are a measuring stick for the qualities of national governments, China today (it ain't Mao's era any longer) trumps India in almost every conceivable way. Unfortunately, I think sympathizers with the Tibetan cause fail to realize the Indian government is basically just using the Tibetans for their own political purposes. The Indian elites will use Buddhist franchises likewise to project soft power and attempt to gain foreign Buddhist support in their conflict with China.

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Grigoris
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:08 am

Can we get back to topic please?

If people wish to start a thread comparing the political/social/economic systems of China and India then please do so, otherwise...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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kajibabu
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by kajibabu » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:12 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Can we get back to topic please?

If people wish to start a thread comparing the political/social/economic systems of China and India then please do so, otherwise...
Dear Dharma friends here in this forum, as Sherab Dorje is trying to mainstream the issue,,, I don't have any kind of disagreement on the title of the documentary. Only the concern is how the facts have been twisted or overlooked and misguided aspiring Dharma practitioner where Shakyamuni Buddha always emphasized on noble truths and 8 Shilas which is the essence of Buddhism.

We can go and go discussing about geopolitics. No doubt, India has contributed great from humanitarian context offering refuge to HH Dalai and many Tibetans in exile, like wise Nepal has also shared the virtue in this good cause offering refuge to many Tibetan brothers and sisters, including allowing the ground to practice Dharma at different places.

Buddha was born in Kapilbastu which lies in present day Nepal, became enlightened and turned the wheel of Dharma first time in present day India, travelled time to time to Kapilbastu as well. Other siddhas also practiced Dharma mainly travelling across Himalayan region.

Before there was no countries like India with the boundary present day India has, likewise Nepal was also confined only in Kathmandu valley in ancient time, later expanded to big and shrank again...

The major concern is what is the attitude of the presenter with such kind of motivation "I can say colonial mindset".... Does that fit with Buddhist ethics, with such distorted thought about the relatively truth of current geographical facts?
Babu, Nepal

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:27 pm

Indrajala wrote:Delhi despite being the capital city of a country with atomic weapons can't keep the lights on 24/7. During the summer there are constant blackouts. There's also huge problems with basic policing in that city. Generally the city is an unhygienic dump. Supermarkets commonly sell expired and damaged food products. Even the posh area of town is littered with rubbish, feces and crumbling cement.
Washington D.C., the capital of America, is also a dump.
Indrajala wrote: This is in stark contrast to much of India where after decades of independence from British Rule they still don't have basic sanitation and rule of law.
Detroit and south side Chicago are worse than any part of India.

But feel free to perpetuate the media's claim of western superiority.

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:45 pm

Off topic discussion on ConradTree's practice path split here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by conebeckham » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:03 pm

ConradTree wrote:Mahayana and Vajrayana developed in South India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana#E ... .C5.ABtras" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ronald Davidson calls the Krishna River valley "a site of extraordinary Buddhist activity for almost a thousand years."

Nepal or north India has nothing to do with anything.
Not true.
I'm not interested in the China/India pissing contest at all. But "Northern India" has a great deal to do with Vajrayana Buddhism, and with the Mahasiddhas. Have you ever been there? Besides the question of citing Wiki as a source, you should note they're talking about the early Mahayana texts, and where they were composed.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Zhen Li
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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by Zhen Li » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:21 pm

kajibabu wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Can we get back to topic please?

If people wish to start a thread comparing the political/social/economic systems of China and India then please do so, otherwise...
Dear Dharma friends here in this forum, as Sherab Dorje is trying to mainstream the issue,,, I don't have any kind of disagreement on the title of the documentary. Only the concern is how the facts have been twisted or overlooked and misguided aspiring Dharma practitioner where Shakyamuni Buddha always emphasized on noble truths and 8 Shilas which is the essence of Buddhism.

We can go and go discussing about geopolitics. No doubt, India has contributed great from humanitarian context offering refuge to HH Dalai and many Tibetans in exile, like wise Nepal has also shared the virtue in this good cause offering refuge to many Tibetan brothers and sisters, including allowing the ground to practice Dharma at different places.

Buddha was born in Kapilbastu which lies in present day Nepal, became enlightened and turned the wheel of Dharma first time in present day India, travelled time to time to Kapilbastu as well. Other siddhas also practiced Dharma mainly travelling across Himalayan region.

Before there was no countries like India with the boundary present day India has, likewise Nepal was also confined only in Kathmandu valley in ancient time, later expanded to big and shrank again...

The major concern is what is the attitude of the presenter with such kind of motivation "I can say colonial mindset".... Does that fit with Buddhist ethics, with such distorted thought about the relatively truth of current geographical facts?
I think the main reason why this is a concern with the documentary in question is that it is state-commissioned propaganda by the Republic of India. It was more or less about how this modern day nation state, which only existed for a number of decades, is claiming to be the universal progenitor of all ancient reason, peace, and religion. Just look at how often it is said that this is a place where so many religions can apparently live in "peace." Clearly a whitewash. Buddhism, like Mother Teresa, is really proving to be a great cog in the machine of state propaganda here. The documentary presents both a very narrow picture of what Tibetan Buddhism is, and what the condition of Buddhism was in South Asia. Acknowledging the role of Nepal (and I do mean Kathmandu here) in the cross-cultural development of Buddhism is key, not least because Nepalese Buddhism is probably a much closer picture of what late Indian Buddhism was than the Gelug picture, which in itself is a selectively developed tradition. That means that logic and debate were probably not quite as important to the average Buddhist as we would expect, and celibate monasticism would have been relatively rare, if not entirely non-existent. On the other hand, if this were a documentary on how great and rich the Gelugpa tradition was, then it'd have done a fine job.

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:51 pm

conebeckham wrote: Besides the question of citing Wiki as a source.
That section is extremely well referenced with many direct quotes from academics.

But believe what you wish. :shrug:

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Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism

Post by jiashengrox » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:53 pm

Hmmm, whether is it a promotion or the propaganda doctrine of the Gelugpa, I cant be sure. But there is one thing that I would like to point out (which i think is the main purpose of this documentary) , that HHDL has emphasized in his teachings as well: the need to rely on root indian treatises rather than on tibetan commentaries.

As i have understood (from my limited understanding), that the four traditions have different interpretations towards, for instance, MMK and the commentary considered authoritative by the traditions of Tibet: Chandrakirti's Clear Words. However, i feel that it would be good and necessary for one to first embark on the major root indian treatises. As there are many subtle differences between the tibetan commentaries, there will be bound to be disagreements. Thus, the commonly shared texts beneath all this differences are the root indian treatises.

As we know, the Mahayana traditions have also developed their understanding on Madhyamika, and for them (for MMK), they considered Pingala's commentary as authoritative. Reverend Ji Tsang, the founder of the Three Treatises School, wrote an extensive commentary based on Pingala's commentary, elaborating on many subtle points that Pingala has not elaborated upon. Later scholars such as Reverend Yin Shun and Reverend Zhi Lun wrote their commentaries, but it was based on Pingala's commentary.

So my point here is, with many diverse traditions commenting on the same topic, it would actually be good for anyone who wants to have a fundamental understanding to first rely on the indian treatises. Because these traditions only differ on subtle points, it would not be useful for us to actually just study on the tibetan (or Chinese) commentaries, it might lead to the danger of misinterpreting or misunderstanding the different standpoints. After one has gained familiarity with the root indian treatises, then relying on the commentaries to supplement or deepen one's understanding, we would be able to better appreciate the views of other schools, and come to a intellectual or clear decision of what we feel is correct. Of course, as we proceed, the need of the guidance from a teacher becomes heavier, but it is not within this scope of discussion.

This is my personal opinion; i may be interpreting HHDL in a wrong way! But this would be something as an effort to "unite" all traditions- in the sense of each tradition practising in harmony with one another, w/o any sectarian/biased attitude.

Hope it helps! :namaste:
Last edited by jiashengrox on Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation

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