China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28319
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 19, 2014 2:25 pm

Chinese authorities in Yulshul (Ch: Yushu) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture, Qinghai Province, in the Tibetan province of Kham has begun implementing new repressive measures introduced in late 2011 to directly control and manage Buddhist religious institutions in Tibet.


Link
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Andrew108 » Mon May 19, 2014 4:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:Chinese authorities in Yulshul (Ch: Yushu) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture, Qinghai Province, in the Tibetan province of Kham has begun implementing new repressive measures introduced in late 2011 to directly control and manage Buddhist religious institutions in Tibet.


Link
This is happening so often that it is easy to become desensitized to the awful news. The monastery in question has had a few high profile monks detained and imprisoned on false charged. One monk has been sentenced to 10 years and it is very hard to think that he committed any crime at all. This is really barbaric.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
Ayu
Former staff member
Posts: 6994
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Ayu » Mon May 19, 2014 4:17 pm

Fasting for Tibet:

https://www.facebook.com/events/6243781 ... l_activity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 6:44 pm

  • The authorities accused the previous management committee of failing to maintain stability since numerous protests including self-immolation had occurred at the monastery in recent years notably in 2012 when Nyatso Zilkar monks were arbitrarily detained, beaten up, and sentenced including Tsultrim Kalsang, 25, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

If the monastery is not actively preventing self-immolation (suicides), then are the powers that be supposed to let things roll along business as usual?

One might suggest that if they just gave freedom to the Tibetans then such suicides would stop, but as I've argued before that's politically unfeasible to the Chinese authorities for a few reasons. There's the possibility of free Tibetans with foreign support starting an insurgency against Chinese authorities (that's actually a real threat and always has been). There's also the possibility the Tibetans would seek the right to self-determination (again, probably with foreign support from China's enemies). The Chinese state cannot afford problems in Tibet because of its strategic value, so consequently real autonomy is not in the cards for the foreseeable future.

Basically, these new measures are coming into effect because of lack of cooperation with an authoritarian government. Trying to fight them as a subjugated people with passive aggressive acts like self-immolation just provokes them, no matter how such acts can be morally justified. It really accomplishes nothing and makes the situation worse.

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 6:57 pm

Andrew108 wrote: This is happening so often that it is easy to become desensitized to the awful news. The monastery in question has had a few high profile monks detained and imprisoned on false charged. One monk has been sentenced to 10 years and it is very hard to think that he committed any crime at all. This is really barbaric.
This is just my speculation, but he could have voiced support for the self-immolations and/or resistance against the authorities, in which case that would be cause for such sentencing on the part of authorities attempting to stop the suicides.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28319
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 19, 2014 7:04 pm

Indrajala wrote: Trying to fight them as a subjugated people with passive aggressive acts like self-immolation just provokes them, no matter how such acts can be morally justified. It really accomplishes nothing and makes the situation worse.
If you were in their shoes you would feel differently.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 7:38 pm

Malcolm wrote: If you were in their shoes you would feel differently.
It doesn't matter. Powerful nations do not operate along moral lines. They never have. The Americans exercised violence against the Natives until such time that they could not longer fight back and simply became part of the system laid down by the victor. The Chinese are in a similar situation. Owing to internal and external concerns they cannot allow Tibetans to seek independence or autonomy, just as the Americans could not permit the Natives to fight for freedom or exercise real political autonomy.

There's of course deeper historical reasons behind the conflict between Tibetans and the Chinese. There has been centuries of hostility between the two civilizations across a metaethnic divide. Neither side could either really trust the other, but in the present situation China has a monopoly on violence and nobody will act as champion for the Tibetans, so the Chinese get to dictate all the terms.

If you keep that in mind, then you'll have realistic routes for self-preservation. Unfortunately, liberal political activists tend to be idealistic and unrealistic. The result is a lot of head banging against brick walls. The Tibetans in exile probably listen too much to liberal westerners who offer false hope rather than sound advice.

Clearly this passive-aggressive approach isn't working and never has. It only lends political will to more aggressive measures and attempts at sinicization of Tibetans. One option on the table for the Chinese is to try and make all the Tibetan children into Mandarin speaking self-identifying Chinese citizens. It would solve their problem in Tibet regardless of how the rest of the world would see it (and let's be realistic nobody would give enough damn to do anything about it as business would carry on as usual).

Sherab Rigdrol
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon May 19, 2014 7:43 pm

Indrajala i am continuously disgusted by your pro Chinese commentaries. Justifying their genocidal behavioral is no different than justifying Hitler's occupation of Eastern Europe. You really should toss your laptop and learn what compassion really is, not your oversized intellectual ramblings of what you think it is.

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup » Mon May 19, 2014 7:50 pm

Nobody is advocating self-immolation. But we can try to understand the deep suffering behind it.

Of course, we can ignore the human toll of the Chinese regime too and not care about people's feelings at all in the name of pragmatism. But how is that compassionate?

The saddest thing is Ven. I is within walking distance of several organizations devoted to helping Tibetan victims of PRC torture and oppression. I have requested several times that he put a human face to this suffering and talk to someone there. So far I haven't heard back.

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 7:51 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:Indrajala i am continuously disgusted by your pro Chinese commentaries. Justifying their genocidal behavioral is no different than justifying Hitler's occupation of Eastern Europe. You really should toss your laptop and learn what compassion really is, not your oversized intellectual ramblings of what you think it is.
I am not pro-Chinese. I am attempting to explain their decisions and behaviors in a reasonable and realistic manner. What I wrote above wouldn't be out of place on a politics forum.

But even if we do speak of things from a moral perspective, I imagine a lot of the Chinese leadership sees their decisions as begrudgingly necessary when they have the welfare of over a billion people to tend to, to say nothing of them having powerful enemies.

Basically I think we need to look at the situation from multiple perspectives regardless of how we feel about it.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28319
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Indrajala wrote: Clearly this passive-aggressive approach isn't working and never has. It only lends political will to more aggressive measures and attempts at sinicization of Tibetans. One option on the table for the Chinese is to try and make all the Tibetan children into Mandarin speaking self-identifying Chinese citizens. It would solve their problem in Tibet regardless of how the rest of the world would see it (and let's be realistic nobody would give enough damn to do anything about it as business would carry on as usual).
Ummm...you cannot get an education inside Tibet in Tibetan anywhere BUT the monasteries. Why do you think the Chinese are cracking down so hard on Tibetan Buddhism?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28319
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Indrajala wrote:What I wrote above wouldn't be out of place on a politics forum.
This isn't a politics forum.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup » Mon May 19, 2014 7:55 pm

Do you ever figure in the human equation when you draw these pragmatic, "unemotional" conclusions Ven. Indrajala?
Have you spoken to the Tibetans at on available at your doorstep about the abuse they endured in Chinese prisons, or how they were fired at trying to cross the border?

When we insulate ourselves from the sufferings and difficulties of others it is easy to be "realistic".

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 7:56 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Nobody is advocating self-immolation.
Some don't object too much to it.

Of course, we can ignore the human toll of the Chinese regime too and not care about people's feelings at all in the name of pragmatism. But how is that compassionate?

If bending a knee to an authoritarian government saves more lives than doing otherwise, how can you argue it is wrong if you support non-violence?
The saddest thing is Ven. I is within walking distance of several organizations devoted to helping Tibetan victims of PRC torture and oppression. I have requested several times that he put a human face to this suffering and talk to someone there. So far I haven't heard back.
I do feel sorry for anyone that has suffered torture and imprisonment. However, what exactly would protesting against the Chinese state accomplish? Even if countless people in the west protested, do you think the western oligarchy is going to act against their close business partner the PRC?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28319
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 19, 2014 7:59 pm

Indrajala wrote: If bending a knee to an authoritarian government saves more lives than doing otherwise, how can you argue it is wrong if you support non-violence?
This appeasement approach resulted in the Holocaust, that's why.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup » Mon May 19, 2014 8:00 pm

So-called pragmatism led to Rwanda as well.

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 8:03 pm

Malcolm wrote: Ummm...you cannot get an education inside Tibet in Tibetan anywhere BUT the monasteries. Why do you think the Chinese are cracking down so hard on Tibetan Buddhism?
I've cited reasons already as to why they're cracking down so hard on monasteries.

In any case, the national policy of China is to have everyone speaking Putonghua Mandarin (half of China doesn't actually speak it), including all the Chinese who don't speak it already. Western countries had similar policies not so long ago, which is why children of immigrants and Natives in N. America generally all spoke English (in some cases whether they liked it or not). In China this is seen as necessary for national cohesion and in effect peace and order. Basically, for the Chinese national peace and order must be established whatever the human cost. In their minds the end does justify the means.

So, within that framework, you need to find a solution. As rory suggested before, the Jews managed to preserve their heritage while living within host societies that sometimes even despised them. There's alternative approaches.

Not fair, but that's life.

Sherab Rigdrol
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon May 19, 2014 8:04 pm

Thank you Malcolm and JKhedrup.

Huseng
Posts: 6337
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Mon May 19, 2014 8:07 pm

False comparisons. The PRC does not plan to systematically kill off the Tibetans. They plan to assimilate them and make them self-identify as Chinese citizens, just as many Mongolians, Manchurians and so on came to do.

Does anyone believe the present approach to the Tibetan issue is actually working or will work?

Sherab Rigdrol
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon May 19, 2014 8:09 pm

Indrajala wrote:False comparisons. The PRC does not plan to systematically kill off the Tibetans. They plan to assimilate them and make them self-identify as Chinese citizens, just as many Mongolians, Manchurians and so on came to do.

Does anyone believe the present approach to the Tibetan issue is actually working or will work?
You have no idea of knowing that.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”