China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas

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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 20, 2014 12:18 pm

Indrajala wrote: there are real strategic reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans. The welfare of over a billion people rest on these strategic concerns being addressed.
Therefore, you are pro-China and anti-Tibet. Case closed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

dzoki
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by dzoki » Tue May 20, 2014 1:15 pm

Indrajala wrote: there are real strategic reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans. The welfare of over a billion people rest on these strategic concerns being addressed.
Oh you bet there are real strategic reasons, but does the welfare of Chinese people depend on the Chinese control of Tibet? I don´think so. These real strategic reasons are strategic not for the ordinary Han, but for the military and government controlling the water resources in Tibet, flexing its military muscles at India, Nepal, Bhutan and Myanmar, while freely exploiting Tibet´s natural resources, do you honestly think that some farmer in southern China or some worker in eastern China would have any benefit from these actions? The benefit goes directly to the Nazi cronies sitting in the Chinese government, to the military and to the select entrepreneurs and businesses tied to Chinese Nazi regime. It is true, if Tibet was free, independent country, Chinese government would have much less possibility to bully other countries in Asia. When China decides to occupy Vietnam or Bhutan, do you think this will be good, because it will fulfill China´s strategic needs?

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 2:15 pm

Malcolm wrote: Therefore, you are pro-China and anti-Tibet.
No.

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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Therefore, you are pro-China and anti-Tibet.
No.
Definitely. We are all well aware of the the real politik goals of China, and why they do what they do. You have offered no special insight to that in anything you have posted anywhere. Instead, while libeling Tibetan monasteries for systematic child abuse with little proof, when it is pointed out to you that Chinese have a systematic policy of the cultural annihilation of Tibetans which includes systematic forced abortions and sterilization, you aver and ask for similar proofs (and there is plenty, entire movies in fact). Your sentiments are not nearly as opaque as you seem to think.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

jiashengrox
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by jiashengrox » Tue May 20, 2014 2:28 pm

Indrajala wrote:
jiashengrox wrote:] I wonder what kind of "bodhisattva practice" is this.
Maintaining constant equanimity is the ideal.
Which is clearly not evident in your stand.

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 2:35 pm

Luke wrote: I don't expect the Chinese to leave Tibet. You present a false dilemma between the two choices of the Chinese continuing to brutally repress the Tibetans and the Chinese being driven out completely.
I don't know how much brutal repression is still happening in Tibet nowadays. It might be localized in problematic areas. I don't know. I wouldn't trust the Chinese media, but likewise I have problems with claims coming from Tibetan nationalists. In my travels I've met plenty of Tibetan monks who recently left the PRC and are in constant contact with their family via WeChat (!). Nobody is in jail and their houses are not being ransacked by the cops. In Singapore I met an eminent Lama from Sichuan who has the freedom to come and go out of Tibet, and can clearly go abroad.

So, is there really ongoing brutal repression? There's clearly heavy security measures in place, but I'm not so sure about repression.


But there are many options in between. For example, the Chinese could give more rights and freedoms to the Tibetan people and allow them to preserve their language, religion, natural environment, and culture without much government interference.
As I said before, this could result in a movement for self-determination or an insurgency supported by one of China's enemies. If China is going to grant all these rights and freedoms, it would be a number of years after they've toned down the security levels without suffering an major incidents. The Chinese leadership is well aware most Tibetans would never trust them anyway, but the PRC runs Tibet and can't afford instability for the reasons I've outlined already.
If the Tibetans had more rights and better daily lives, they would be much less likely to riot and protest.
Or they would seek independence. This is not in the interests of China's security.

Do you feel that you understand Tibet far better than the current Dalai Lama, even though you have never even been to Tibet?

My assertions have more to do with the reality of the situation, not what should happen. Ideally India and China would be best friends. However, the political reality in inner Asia is much different and actually rather precarious. China and India are basically enemies, Xinjiang is increasingly inclined towards religious extremism and on top of that there are resource conflicts looming (in particular freshwater).

I'm basically suggesting everyone be realistic and broad minded rather than simply saying what China is doing is wrong and they should stop because we feel they should. The actual options available to the parties involved are actually quite limited.


Since when was it so "liberal" to simply care about the lives of other human beings?
I care about the lives of all human beings. Chinese included.

It's true that many ancient cultures brutally destroyed other ancient cultures without feeling the slightest bit bad about it, but I would like to think that humanity has evolved at least a small amount since that time.
No, not much has really changed. Westerners might think they're morally superior for embracing ideologies like multiculturalism, yet our countries commit ghoulish atrocities continually to secure resources which enable us to have an unequal share of the world's wealth and in turn high standards of living.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 20, 2014 2:45 pm

Indrajala wrote: I'm basically suggesting everyone be realistic and broad minded rather than simply saying what China is doing is wrong and they should stop because we feel they should. The actual options available to the parties involved are actually quite limited.
I suggest you apply that attitude towards India and Tibetan Monasteries.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Huseng
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 2:49 pm

Malcolm wrote: I suggest you apply that attitude towards India and Tibetan Monasteries.
Your suggested is noted.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu » Tue May 20, 2014 3:15 pm

Indrajala wrote: I'm basically suggesting everyone be realistic and broad minded rather than simply saying what China is doing is wrong and they should stop because we feel they should. The actual options available to the parties involved are actually quite limited.
No, the Chinese ruling class holds all the cards. And when China consistently moves in a positive direction then I will applaud them.

I don't know how much brutal repression is still happening in Tibet nowadays. It might be localized in problematic areas. I don't know.
This has been claimed for some time by people somewhat sympathetic with China (I am not claiming that you are in that set BTW but I have heard this before, word for word).
I've met plenty of Tibetan monks who recently left the PRC and are in constant contact with their family via WeChat (!). Nobody is in jail and their houses are not being ransacked by the cops.
There are some case like this. In the past they have usually emigrated from outside the TAR and have been seen by the PRC to originate from China proper.
In Singapore I met an eminent Lama from Sichuan who has the freedom to come and go out of Tibet, and can clearly go abroad.
Yes and if this continues then this would be a positive step.

But the PRC has been almost schizophrenic in their approach to Tibetan Buddhism. When was the last time that they bulldozed Serthar, for example? Was their last bulldozing in 2001? No one knows when and where the next shoe will drop. So they have to do quite a bit to repair their image.

You like to talk about the reality of the situation. The reality is grim for the PRC if they do not think outside the box. So apologizing to the Tibetan people, permitting the free expression of religion, stopping their attacks on HHDL and permitting his return as a religious figure, negotiating partial internal autonomy would be positive steps. Stopping cultural genocide amongst all the minorities would however be step 1.

However the lessons the PRC learned from Gorbatchow and his attempts to reform the Soviet Union were on the negative side: events can spin out of control. There is more than one way for events to spin out of control in fact. Since they hold the power, they have to take action. If you want a pattern for failure, look no further than Netanyahu and the current Palestinian leadership with the onus on Netanyahu and his cohorts. People can actually live in impossible situations for generations. A positive example for change would be Sadat-Begin which was of course initiated by Sadat. Another positive example would be Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson dealing with legal challenges surrounding the Civil Rights Era and the transformation of the major racist country on Earth to the beginnings of an equitable society.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 4:26 pm

kirtu wrote: No, the Chinese ruling class holds all the cards.
They're not omnipotent. The geopolitical situation in the region brings with it a lot of limitations. India would be at an advantage if China let its guard down for instance.


Yes and if this continues then this would be a positive step.

It doesn't indicate they're being oppressed if they can leave and return unsupervised. The lines of communication are not necessarily cut either. Again, WeChat is used to constantly communicate with family back home.


So apologizing to the Tibetan people,...
In Asia seldom do political institutions apologize. It makes you look weak and your enemies capitalize on this. You also stand to lose supporters by apologizing. It isn't like in the west where we generally see apologizing as a sign of strength.

This is incidentally why Japanese politicians frequently visit Yasukuni despite China's protest. It actually wins them China's begrudging respect.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 20, 2014 5:07 pm

Indrajala wrote:
kirtu wrote: No, the Chinese ruling class holds all the cards.
They're not omnipotent. The geopolitical situation in the region brings with it a lot of limitations. India would be at an advantage if China let its guard down for instance.
Poor China, always has to defend itself against its enemies...boo hoo.
It doesn't indicate they're being oppressed if they can leave and return unsupervised. The lines of communication are not necessarily cut either. Again, WeChat is used to constantly communicate with family back home.
Where everything they say is constantly being monitored. So they speak in codes and so on. Really, your level of apology for the PRC is astonishing compared with your bile vented towards Indians and Tibetans in general. So much for equanimity.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by smcj » Tue May 20, 2014 5:59 pm

Does anyone believe the present approach to the Tibetan issue is actually working or will work?
Short answer? No.

The only way I see things improving in Tibet is if China implodes politically. That actually could possibly happen. The Soviet Union did, and Tiananmen Square came close. But given China's expanding economy that eventuality is not even on the horizon now. But then again my predictions for the future have less than a 5% rate of accuracy.
...there are real strategic reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans.
Not really. There are real political reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans. The Chinese leadership saw what happened to the Soviet Union when they liberalized their domestic policies, and Tiananmen Square confirmed their worst paranoias. Modern day China is no more a coherent country than the Soviet Union was. If they give any autonomy to the Tibetans all the other "provinces" will want the same, and things could come unraveled very quickly. I think it fair to say that the Chinese leadership considers the issue of Tibetan autonomy to be a real and present danger not only to the political cohesion to their country but to their very own lives as well. In other words, lightening up on Tibet means they would be facing a firing squad some time shortly thereafter. It's not going to happen.

I think it should be mentioned that Chiang Kai-shek also considered Tibet to be part of China. So either way after WWII was over the Tibetans were in for big trouble. Their bad karma was ripening.
Last edited by smcj on Tue May 20, 2014 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Luke » Tue May 20, 2014 6:29 pm

Indrajala wrote: No, not much has really changed. Westerners might think they're morally superior for embracing ideologies like multiculturalism, yet our countries commit ghoulish atrocities continually to secure resources which enable us to have an unequal share of the world's wealth and in turn high standards of living.
Yes, I am well aware of the atrocities that the US and other western countries have committed. But it was western governments and some of their soldiers who committed those actions and not the common people of these countries. So we westerners who do not support the past and present immoral actions of our governments should not feel that we have to remain silent about problems in other countries out of some kind of inherited guilt. The average citizens in most countries are much more ethical and compassionate than their governments are. Anyway, this subject is just a distraction from the topic of this thread.

The fact that the US and other western countries have committed their own atrocities doesn't make the Chinese repression of Tibet any more ethical.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup » Tue May 20, 2014 9:04 pm

Geshe Sonam's uncle was thrown in jail for 6 months due to too many calls coming to his cellphone from India. There was no charge laid, no trial, he was just sent to jail.

Geshe la's cousin endured similar treatment for sending back and forth photos of HH Dalai Lama on Wechat.

I really wonder how you don't hear this information considering it is widely known in the HP Tibetan community.


WeChat leads to arrest of five Tibetans in Sog
Phayul[Saturday, March 15, 2014 20:32]
By Phuntsok Yangchen

DHARAMSHALA, March 15: Five Tibetans including two monks of Drilda monastery in Sog County were arrested by Chinese authorities on March 6 for allegedly sharing pictures and messages on WeChat, the China based popular messaging application, according to Ngawang Tharpa, a Tibetan living in exile with close contacts in Tibet.

The five Tibetans were identified as Norbu Dhondup, Monlam Gyatso, Tsering Tharpa, Kalsang Tsultrim and Thupten Palden. The current whereabouts of the five Tibetans are not known.

Kalsang Tsultrim and Thupten Palden, monks of Drilda monastery had earlier been arrested in May 2012 and sentenced to one year in prison. After serving a year prison term in Toelung prison in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet, they were released.

WeChat is a text and voice messaging communication service developed by Tencent in 2011 and is widely used by Tibetans inside and outside Tibet. It has become the most used mode of communication through its walkie-talkie style messaging facility. However, activists and experts fear that the app’s voice-messaging service enables security officials to monitor user’s movements in real time and access other information shared via the app.

The same source also reported that four of the six Tibetans including a fifteen year old juvenile arrested for allegedly writing “Tibet is an independent country” on ice sheet on February 3 were released. Sidsum, Dorjee, Lhakpa and his younger brother Jamyang Gyatso were released and have to report everyday to the local Chinese authorities’ office.

Moreover, the current condition and whereabouts of four Tibetan monks, Tsultrim Passang, 20; Lobsang Yeshi, 15; Kalsang Jampa, 22 and Kalsang Dorjee, 23 from Dowa Shartsang monastery who were arrested on Februrary 4 for distributing and pasting documents are still not known.

Tharpa also told Phayul that local Tibetans in Trido region in Sog County have written “Tibet is independent” with red paint on a bridge around March 10, the 55th anniversary of the Tibetan National Uprising of Lhasa. Around 20 military trucks and 80 Chinese armed forces have been deployed in the region and are checking all the hotels in the area. The authorities are strictly monitoring all movements and intercepting communication lines
Chinese police have detained a Tibetan monk in the Chamdo prefecture of the Tibet Autonomous Region after accusing him of sharing politically sensitive information with others from his mobile phone, according to a Tibetan source.

It was the second such incident to be reported in recent days from the TAR’s Chamdo (in Chinese, Changdu) prefecture. On Feb. 28, Chinese authorities detained and fatally beat another monk after finding him in possession of banned writings and videos.
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/b ... 52359.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by saraswati » Tue May 20, 2014 10:21 pm

Indrajala wrote: I don't know how much brutal repression is still happening in Tibet nowadays. It might be localized in problematic areas. I don't know. I wouldn't trust the Chinese media, but likewise I have problems with claims coming from Tibetan nationalists. In my travels I've met plenty of Tibetan monks who recently left the PRC and are in constant contact with their family via WeChat (!). Nobody is in jail and their houses are not being ransacked by the cops. In Singapore I met an eminent Lama from Sichuan who has the freedom to come and go out of Tibet, and can clearly go abroad.
It would be a very good experiment indeed if some homeless monk tried to live in PRC or Tibet for a few months and tried to have the same opportunities for progress and practice as they were getting in that terrible place called India, and reported back objectively.

:stirthepot:
Let yourself become that space that welcomes any experience without judgement.
- Tsoknyi Rinpoche

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 11:36 pm

smcj wrote: The only way I see things improving in Tibet is if China implodes politically.
I don't see this happening in the foreseeable future despite ominous prophecies often suggesting it will. China has a lot of foreign currency reserves and owns a lot of debt of foreign countries, too. Unlike the Soviet Union, the western world and increasingly other countries are reliant on China economically and industrially. Even Canada is being slowly bought up by Chinese money. What this means is that there will be even less political willpower to address the Tibet issue on the international stage.
There are real political reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans.
I insist it is partly strategic. Curious how nobody here is addressing my earlier points with respect to this. Firstly, China's enemies could and probably would fund an insurgency in Tibet if they could get away with it. Secondly, the Tibetans if given the chance would seek self-determination. Neither of these scenarios are in the strategic interests of the PRC. This ties in with Xinjiang especially where religious extremism is on the rise:
  • "Just a few years ago, young people in Xinjiang felt a lot of solidarity with Turkey, but people have become increasingly narrow-minded and cannot even tolerate Turkey's secular culture. They want Xinjiang to become another Afghanistan."
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... viral_tale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the Chinese perspective it would be suicide to open and lighten up, so to speak.

In other words, lightening up on Tibet means they would be facing a firing squad some time shortly thereafter. It's not going to happen.
I think as long as the Chinese military remains loyal to the bureaucracy there is no risk of a complete collapse, even in the face of economic hardship. Popular revolutions only generally work out when the elites are fractured and opportunists look to popular interests to further their own causes.

I think it should be mentioned that Chiang Kai-shek also considered Tibet to be part of China. So either way after WWII was over the Tibetans were in for big trouble. Their bad karma was ripening.
Makes you wonder what kind of outcome there would have been if the Empire of Japan had been victorious in the East.
Last edited by Huseng on Tue May 20, 2014 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Huseng » Tue May 20, 2014 11:40 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Geshe Sonam's uncle was thrown in jail for 6 months due to too many calls coming to his cellphone from India. There was no charge laid, no trial, he was just sent to jail.

Geshe la's cousin endured similar treatment for sending back and forth photos of HH Dalai Lama on Wechat.

I really wonder how you don't hear this information considering it is widely known in the HP Tibetan community.
I agree it is morally wrong to arbitrarily imprison people, but do you think responding to such treatment with aggressive protesting or passive-aggressive resistance will make the Chinese authorities change their ways when there is negligible international pressure for them to stop?

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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Wed May 21, 2014 12:10 am

JKhedrup wrote: It was the second such incident to be reported in recent days from the TAR’s Chamdo (in Chinese, Changdu) prefecture. On Feb. 28, Chinese authorities detained and fatally beat another monk after finding him in possession of banned writings and videos.
Or would you like more proof of Chinese oppression of Tibetan people, Jeff? Because really, there is bucket loads. Far more examples of Chinese authorities beating, torturing, raping and killing Tibetans than there is of sexual abuse in Tibetan monasteries in India.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm » Wed May 21, 2014 12:13 am

Indrajala wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:Geshe Sonam's uncle was thrown in jail for 6 months due to too many calls coming to his cellphone from India. There was no charge laid, no trial, he was just sent to jail.

Geshe la's cousin endured similar treatment for sending back and forth photos of HH Dalai Lama on Wechat.

I really wonder how you don't hear this information considering it is widely known in the HP Tibetan community.
I agree it is morally wrong to arbitrarily imprison people, but do you think responding to such treatment with aggressive protesting or passive-aggressive resistance will make the Chinese authorities change their ways when there is negligible international pressure for them to stop?
That is why people who live outside of Tibet must continue to voice their opposition to atrocities committed by the PRC against Tibetans. If people are silent, the Chinese will merely take this as assent. This is why HH Dalai Lama is so important, he is living testament to the 55 years of utter brutality to which Tibetans have subjected in their own land.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by smcj » Wed May 21, 2014 12:13 am

I think as long as the Chinese military remains loyal to the bureaucracy there is no risk of a complete collapse...
That's a big "if". No sign of it now, but as Tiananmen Square showed in 1989, the various generals are more like individual warlords than a coherent cohesive military. Unlike here where we assume that things will pretty much go on as they have, with thousands of years of history behind them the Chinese leadership knows full well that all governments cease at some point. Tonight I'm sure they are sleeping easy, but I'm also sure that they know tomorrow may be different.

Hence their hard line on Tibet.
Last edited by smcj on Wed May 21, 2014 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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