Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:14 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:31 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:45 pm


No, which kind of vajrayana are you practicing? The one that critics the guru? Sorry haven't heard of that one yet. Must be new. Good luck with that.
Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.

Malcolm - where can we find this passage - I was looking for it in clear differentiation of the three vows but couldn't locate it, suspect I'm looking in the wrong text. Thanks

It is in a short text in Sapan's collected works, but TBRC is down right now so I cannot provide the link.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:19 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:01 pm

CTR is supreme!

"An example of Padmasambhva’s acting as a father figure for Tibet was the warning that he gave King Trisong Detsen. The New Years celebration was about to be held, which traditionally included horse racing and archery, among the other events. Padmasambhava said, “there shouldn’t be horse racing or archery this time.” But no one listened and the King was killed by the arrow of an unknown assassin at the of the horse racing and archery" CTR

So much for autonomy.
This didn't happen. In other words, Trisrong Detsen was not killed by an arrow, an assassin's or otherwise.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:22 pm

diamind wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:22 pm

Do you mean to say when the guru is unqualified? things become unhealthy?
When they harm their students for their own benefit, or if they give an empowerment which they have not themselves received, etc., this renders a guru "unqualified."

ChNN tells a story about a cat guru who had a lot of mice disciples...you know how the story ends.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm
Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.
The point of being a guru is to help sentient beings discover freedom. The point of being a guru is not to have sentient beings surrender themselves to you.

Ordinary sentient beings need help, this is why we have teachers for everything we do.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:49 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:45 pm
How can one be devoted to the man who speaks about "ego" and other strange things? There is no "ego" in buddhism. It is fiction. One can't rebuilt the "fortress of ego". For ex one can't rearrange horns of the rabbit. Vaisnavas are egoless in that respect because they are devoted. Nice. And that man without any mention of buddadharma speaks about devotion...poor TB. Half of it sinks completedly in proliferation.
This was the language that CTR used at the time. Try substituting the word "self".
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:25 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm
Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.
The point of being a guru is to help sentient beings discover freedom. The point of being a guru is not to have sentient beings surrender themselves to you.

Ordinary sentient beings need help, this is why we have teachers for everything we do.
So does the term "lote lingkyur" exist in Tibetan and if so, how would you translate / understand it?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm
I think I understand what you are trying to say JD, but your comments remind me of something CTR wrote:
At the vajrayana level, we begin with faith in the teachings and the teacher, because we have already experienced the truth and the work-ability of the teachings for ourselves. Then, with the discovery of vajra nature, faith begins to develop into devotion, which is mogii in Tibetan. Mo means "longing," and gU means "respect." We develop tremendous respect for the teacher and a longing for what he can impart because we see that he is the embodiment of vajra nature, the embodiment of wakeful mind. At this level, the teacher becomes the guru.

One's relationship with the vajra master involves surrendering one-self to the teacher as the final expression of egolessness. This allows the practitioner to develop fully the threefold vajra nature: vajra body, vajra speech, and vajra mind. The maturation of devotion into complete sur-rendering is called lote lingkyur in Tibetan. Lote means "trust," ling means "completely," and kyur means "abandoning" or "letting go." So lote ling-kyur means "to trust completely and let go"-to abandon one's ego completely. Without such surrender, there is no way to give up the last vestiges of ego; nor could the teacher introduce the yidam, the essence of egolessness. In fact. without such devotion to the teacher, one might attempt to use the vajrayana teachings to rebuild the fortress of ego.
(I'm sure Malcolm will have some issue or other with the language).

Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.

BTW mods, this conversation seems to have strayed quite a bit from the OP. Perhaps most of it ought to be a separate thread.
Totally reasonable, but perhaps this is why you only surrender and let go to a guru you truly trust, and personally I do not trust someone who seems to be in it more for the outward devotion towards themselves than leading students toward the goal. Again, it many cases it does not seem hard to discern from my point of view. I'm not advocating doing it "on your own" by any means, nor am I saying you can have a real guru/disciple relationship without devotion...i'm just questioning whether or not devotion and "letting go" means necessary suspending one's dignity. There is a difference between simply giving up one's dignity and autonomy and willingly "letting go" of one's bullshit.

i'm more talking about using some common sense in observing people's outward behavior, sure there might be crazy wisdom exceptions here and there, but I think in the vast majority of cases it ain't exactly rocket surgery.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:07 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:45 pm
And that man without any mention of buddadharma speaks about devotion...
BTW, the quote comes from Chapter 7 of The Heart of the Buddha: Entering the Tibetan Buddhist Path, which is entitled Sacred Outlook: The Practice of Vajrayogini. Hopefully that provides sufficient context.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Bd ... ni&f=false
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:23 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:53 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:25 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm
Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.
The point of being a guru is to help sentient beings discover freedom. The point of being a guru is not to have sentient beings surrender themselves to you.

Ordinary sentient beings need help, this is why we have teachers for everything we do.
So does the term "lote lingkyur" exist in Tibetan and if so, how would you translate / understand it?

Yes, blo gtad ling bskyur is a real Tibetan term. It means "complete trust." One has to have complete trust in one's guru. For example, I completely trust ChNN. But I do not think this trust is something which is given as a concept. It is something which takes time to develop.

The issue before us is whether or not a guru can violate that trust. Some literalists will say no, it is not possible. I think it is possible and happens quite a bit, actually, especially to women. Then there is the the sticky point of when one has genuinely entered into a true relationship with a guru, at what point does this occur? I don't think this necessarily happens just because one has received an empowerment.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:14 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:31 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm


Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.

Malcolm - where can we find this passage - I was looking for it in clear differentiation of the three vows but couldn't locate it, suspect I'm looking in the wrong text. Thanks

It is in a short text in Sapan's collected works, but TBRC is down right now so I cannot provide the link.
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... 9%7CW22271
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:19 pm

Thanks Malcolm. I figured that surrender would be the word you would have difficulty with. It does seem to equate with complete trust in this context, but it is a term more open to being misconstrued.
Malcolm said:

It is something which takes time to develop... I don't think this necessarily happens just because one has received an empowerment.
Yes, this is what I understood CTR to be saying too.
.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:40 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:19 pm
Thanks Malcolm. I figured that surrender would be the word you would have difficulty with. It does seem to equate with complete trust in this context, but it is a term more open to being misconstrued.
The only surrender a student has to make is to surrender the idea that they can extricate themselves from samsara without the intimate instructions of a qualified guru.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Motova » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:40 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:19 pm
Thanks Malcolm. I figured that surrender would be the word you would have difficulty with. It does seem to equate with complete trust in this context, but it is a term more open to being misconstrued.
The only surrender a student has to make is to surrender the idea that they can extricate themselves from samsara without the intimate instructions of a qualified guru.
:good:

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by PeterC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:49 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:14 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:31 am



Malcolm - where can we find this passage - I was looking for it in clear differentiation of the three vows but couldn't locate it, suspect I'm looking in the wrong text. Thanks

It is in a short text in Sapan's collected works, but TBRC is down right now so I cannot provide the link.
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... 9%7CW22271
Thank you!

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:47 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:22 pm

ChNN tells a story about a cat guru who had a lot of mice disciples...you know how the story ends.
Please tell us the whole story(even though we know how it would end). :twothumbsup:

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Simon E. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:40 pm
Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:19 pm
Thanks Malcolm. I figured that surrender would be the word you would have difficulty with. It does seem to equate with complete trust in this context, but it is a term more open to being misconstrued.
The only surrender a student has to make is to surrender the idea that they can extricate themselves from samsara without the intimate instructions of a qualified guru.
And that was one of CTR's core teachings. It was absolutely central. He said frequently that no Vajrayana happens without the Guru. And that any Vajrayana practice engaged in without the Guru was like sowing seed that had been boiled...i.e. it would produce no fruit. That it reduced the Dharma to the level of a hobby.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by WeiHan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:05 pm

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's observation is quite spot on but I read it as it is just a general observation and his words is not intended to be too precise. I'll like to add that this probably does not applies to westerners as most of the earlier westerners that are drawn to Vajrayana are genuinely curious or interested with the philosophical aspects as well as the practising aspect which will includes Mahayana teachings easily. However, that is not the case in Asia (as he mentioned taiwan).

In Asia, the traditional devoted Mahayanists in Chinese temple are usually vegetarian with the explicit message of compassion constantly drilled on them frequently. The only practices they have in mahayana usually has a explicit compassion message in it such as vegetarianism, animal liberation etc.. even sutras recitation is explicit in the compassion message. However, that is not the case for Vajrayana in asia. It is common in Asia that Tibetan masters' teaching programme is to give a series of empowerments. As you all know, although bodhicitta is also mentioned during empowerment, the colorful aspects and the powers and special siddhis of the deities that promised often eclipse this short statement of Bodhicitta message during the empowerment.

In addition, teachings on developing love, compassion, and bodhicitta are often not well attended. well attended are empowerments especially those that are connected to wealth siddhis. in asia, there many buddhists in name only but do not know anything about buddhism but at a later life become attracted to Vajrayana for whatever reasons except for enlightenment.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzoki » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:33 am

WeiHan wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:05 pm
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's observation is quite spot on but I read it as it is just a general observation and his words is not intended to be too precise. I'll like to add that this probably does not applies to westerners as most of the earlier westerners that are drawn to Vajrayana are genuinely curious or interested with the philosophical aspects as well as the practising aspect which will includes Mahayana teachings easily. However, that is not the case in Asia (as he mentioned taiwan).
I think this applies to Westerners as well. In general what I have seen, in Slovakia and Czech republic, being member of several sanghas, people coming to Vajrayana usually have one of four backgorunds - christian background, atheist background, new age background and theravada/zen background. In my experience people with atheist or theravada/zen background become more serious students, studying texts and undertaking personal retreats and having meditation practice as a prominent part of their lives, while people of christian background often just want a better version of chrisitianity - with less strict rules, but still Jesus = Buddha for many of them, and all paths lead to one goal and all that non-sense. People with new-age background usually do not take Dharma seriously, they just add it to their collection of spiritual stuff and mix their new-age believes with some cherry picked Dharma quotes. Because they do not study dharma nor do they engage in meditation practice on more frequent basis, after some time they leave Dharma behind for some more exciting new-age stuff, which is produced just like commercial products are - every year there is a new model. There are of course exceptions to this, but in general this is what I have observed.
Last edited by dzoki on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:47 am

No comment on the theists and new agers.

The theravadan and zennist at least have roots in the Buddha's Dharma.

The materialist/'atheist'/annihilationist, has nowhere to go but up.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzoki » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:05 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:47 am
No comment on the theists and new agers.

The theravadan and zennist at least have roots in the Buddha's Dharma.

The materialist/atheist/annihilationist, has nowhere to go but up.
I think it basically comes down to one thing - preconcieved notions and conditioning. People who did theravada and zen training have usually solid understanding of meditation and dharma concepts, so they easily take to the vajrayana teachings which already include many concepts that they have previously learned. Ahteists in general just have no idea about spirituality and so they come to Dharma as a clean slate and they are eager to absorb teachings since they did not find their answers in the materialism. Some of Christians were just disilussioned with their church for one reason or another and are looking for something different, but they still hold onto the concepts and views that are Christian and it is not easy to uncodition oneself from the years of listening about sin, almighty creator etc. As for new-agers I often find that they come to Dharma with a kind of hubris - thinking "Oh I already know this, I heard this or yes this is fine, but my idea is better." So they come with all sorts of conceptual baggage and often are not willing to give it up or do not see how their ideas are different from what Dharma is teaching. One example of this would be the idea that many people of new age background hold - that awakening means becoming one with everything and if you try to explain them, that this is monism and not non-dualism and that there is an individual basis, they will say something like: Oh these are just words...

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