Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

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Motova
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Motova » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:12 am

Image

Proof that Star Wars is real life.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:37 am

My theory (spoiler alert): Snoke is Jar Jar Binks.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:45 am

Ricky wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:04 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:38 pm


That's the view. Maybe it's better you stick with the sutras.

No, that is not the view. That just some cultist bullshit. Instead, authentic sources like the Padmini commentary on the Hevajra Tantra composed in the mid-10th century state:

"Because of the power of the Kaliyuga, gurus have mixed qualities and faults,
there are none at all without misdeeds;
disciples should rely on those
whose qualities predominate, and who have been thoroughly investigated."
Nice quote. I always had the idea that gurus in Vajrayana have to be seen as infallible Buddhas in order for the practices to work.
Great quote but it's missing something don't you think?

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm
Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm


Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.
Man, it seems to me that this type of thing should be more widely known.
There is a huge tendency in Vajrayāna to encourage sycophancy and dependence amongst disciples. Many people do not understand that there are limits to the guru's authority. For example, Sapan also states with great clarity:

If he does not teach according to the words of the Buddha,
even if he is one’s guru, one should remain indifferent.


This is not to say that we can get anywhere on our own in the Buddhist path, The Tattvāvatāra states:

The all-knowing one praises reliance on a guru,
not the independence of a disciple.
A blind person is not independent,
unable to climb a mountain.


Nevertheless, we must temper our understaing of the need to rely on a qualified master with common sense, so we do not wind up creating Buddhist cults which merely keep people imprisoned cages that seem like Dharma but are actually just clever prisons.
So some behaviour of the guru is unacceptable, while some is acceptable? But wouldn't that contradict the foundation of Buddha Dharma?

Vajrayana is extremely dangerous in that regard.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:13 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am
I loved when he handed Khenpo tsultrim lodro rinpoche a light saber when they were together and said "May the force be with you"

OK, I did a little poking around and I found the video:

Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by liuzg150181 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:43 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:13 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am
I loved when he handed Khenpo tsultrim lodro rinpoche a light saber when they were together and said "May the force be with you"

OK, I did a little poking around and I found the video:

"I find your lack of faith (in the guru and triple gem) disturbing." :jedi:

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 pm
diamind wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm


There is a huge tendency in Vajrayāna to encourage sycophancy and dependence amongst disciples. Many people do not understand that there are limits to the guru's authority. For example, Sapan also states with great clarity:

If he does not teach according to the words of the Buddha,
even if he is one’s guru, one should remain indifferent.


This is not to say that we can get anywhere on our own in the Buddhist path, The Tattvāvatāra states:

The all-knowing one praises reliance on a guru,
not the independence of a disciple.
A blind person is not independent,
unable to climb a mountain.


Nevertheless, we must temper our understaing of the need to rely on a qualified master with common sense, so we do not wind up creating Buddhist cults which merely keep people imprisoned cages that seem like Dharma but are actually just clever prisons.
So some behaviour of the guru is unacceptable, while some is acceptable? But wouldn't that contradict the foundation of Buddha Dharma?

Vajrayana is extremely dangerous in that regard.

It does not contradict anything. And Vajrayāna is only dangerous for blind fools who leave their brains along with their shoes at the temple door.
Trouble is people don't have brains, therefore by default vajrayana is dangerous.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Well, there is that whole snake in a bamboo tube trope, after all.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 pm

diamind wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 pm
diamind wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:24 am


So some behaviour of the guru is unacceptable, while some is acceptable? But wouldn't that contradict the foundation of Buddha Dharma?

Vajrayana is extremely dangerous in that regard.

It does not contradict anything. And Vajrayāna is only dangerous for blind fools who leave their brains along with their shoes at the temple door.
Trouble is people don't have brains, therefore by default vajrayana is dangerous.


Pretty grim view.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:18 pm

diamind wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 pm
Trouble is people don't have brains, therefore by default all people are dangerous.
You're welcome ...
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Tolya M
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Tolya M » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:49 am

Vajrayana was revealed for brahmanas, vaisnavas, saivas and other barbarians. They do not have a brain by default. :D
It is good that that person has a buddhist malas on the neck. There could be a necklace of ears actually.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:55 am

Tolya M wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:49 am
Vajrayana was revealed for brahmanas, vaisnavas, saivas and other barbarians. They do not have a brain by default. :D
It is good that that person has a buddhist malas on the neck. There could be a necklace of ears actually.
Chortle :applause:

I had a dream the other night, I was making the sound of a pig and meditating on it.

... so perhaps there is hope for me yet.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:45 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:26 pm

You’re kidding I hope.
No, which kind of vajrayana are you practicing? The one that critics the guru? Sorry haven't heard of that one yet. Must be new. Good luck with that.
Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.

Malcolm - where can we find this passage - I was looking for it in clear differentiation of the three vows but couldn't locate it, suspect I'm looking in the wrong text. Thanks

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:22 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 pm
:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

I feel fortunate to have had multiple teachers (yep, within the Tibetan traditions) that explicitly and strongly encouraged people to be responsible for their own practice, while emphasizing the deep relationship with one's mentors and/or Gurus.

In fact don't think I could "go back" to a naive idea of following a Guru who did not grant me the right to my own autonomy spiritually, to me it is a part of the path, and it is the slavish adherence to replacement daddy-figure that should be the aberration, rather than the other way around. Not all devotion is healthy, and some forms are counter to the path.
Devotion is the key to vajrayana tho. If your guru is qualified then I think it's safe no matter how fanatical you get.

Do you mean to say when the guru is unqualified? things become unhealthy?

It's said over and over again in the scriptures how beneficial adherence to the guru is, and yes like a father figure. I don't see the disadvantage or a problem with this.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:53 pm

:pig:
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:55 am
Tolya M wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:49 am
Vajrayana was revealed for brahmanas, vaisnavas, saivas and other barbarians. They do not have a brain by default. :D
It is good that that person has a buddhist malas on the neck. There could be a necklace of ears actually.
Chortle :applause:

I had a dream the other night, I was making the sound of a pig and meditating on it.

... so perhaps there is hope for me yet.
:pig:

diamind
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:59 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
He cant seem to resist an opportunity to belittle the people who pay for his privileged lifestyle.
That's what we sign up for. :jedi:

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:31 am

diamind wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 pm
:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

I feel fortunate to have had multiple teachers (yep, within the Tibetan traditions) that explicitly and strongly encouraged people to be responsible for their own practice, while emphasizing the deep relationship with one's mentors and/or Gurus.

In fact don't think I could "go back" to a naive idea of following a Guru who did not grant me the right to my own autonomy spiritually, to me it is a part of the path, and it is the slavish adherence to replacement daddy-figure that should be the aberration, rather than the other way around. Not all devotion is healthy, and some forms are counter to the path.
Devotion is the key to vajrayana tho. If your guru is qualified then I think it's safe no matter how fanatical you get.

Do you mean to say when the guru is unqualified? things become unhealthy?

It's said over and over again in the scriptures how beneficial adherence to the guru is, and yes like a father figure. I don't see the disadvantage or a problem with this.
My father encouraged me to be responsible for myself and learn to be independent of him...my teachers have done the same. From my point of view Gurus who foster dependence in disciples are questionable, period. That said, I realize I don't have the capacity to judge, I simply would never serve such a teacher, because I would never be able to develop devotion to someone who appeared outwardly so needy in the first place.

Neediness and dependency on either end of the relationship are not a prerequisite of devotion by any means.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Punya » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm

I think I understand what you are trying to say JD, but your comments remind me of something CTR wrote:
At the vajrayana level, we begin with faith in the teachings and the teacher, because we have already experienced the truth and the work-ability of the teachings for ourselves. Then, with the discovery of vajra nature, faith begins to develop into devotion, which is mogii in Tibetan. Mo means "longing," and gU means "respect." We develop tremendous respect for the teacher and a longing for what he can impart because we see that he is the embodiment of vajra nature, the embodiment of wakeful mind. At this level, the teacher becomes the guru.

One's relationship with the vajra master involves surrendering one-self to the teacher as the final expression of egolessness. This allows the practitioner to develop fully the threefold vajra nature: vajra body, vajra speech, and vajra mind. The maturation of devotion into complete sur-rendering is called lote lingkyur in Tibetan. Lote means "trust," ling means "completely," and kyur means "abandoning" or "letting go." So lote ling-kyur means "to trust completely and let go"-to abandon one's ego completely. Without such surrender, there is no way to give up the last vestiges of ego; nor could the teacher introduce the yidam, the essence of egolessness. In fact. without such devotion to the teacher, one might attempt to use the vajrayana teachings to rebuild the fortress of ego.
(I'm sure Malcolm will have some issue or other with the language).

Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.

BTW mods, this conversation seems to have strayed quite a bit from the OP. Perhaps most of it ought to be a separate thread.
May the stupid meditators be awakened from the sleep of ignorance;
May the attacks of the logicians with their sophistries be vanquished.

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in Rain of Wisdom

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Tolya M » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:45 pm

How can one be devoted to the man who speaks about "ego" and other strange things? There is no "ego" in buddhism. It is fiction. One can't rebuilt the "fortress of ego". For ex one can't rearrange horns of the rabbit. Vaisnavas are egoless in that respect because they are devoted. Nice. And that man without any mention of buddadharma speaks about devotion...poor TB. Half of it sinks completedly in proliferation.

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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by diamind » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:01 pm

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:57 pm
I think I understand what you are trying to say JD, but your comments remind me of something CTR wrote:
At the vajrayana level, we begin with faith in the teachings and the teacher, because we have already experienced the truth and the work-ability of the teachings for ourselves. Then, with the discovery of vajra nature, faith begins to develop into devotion, which is mogii in Tibetan. Mo means "longing," and gU means "respect." We develop tremendous respect for the teacher and a longing for what he can impart because we see that he is the embodiment of vajra nature, the embodiment of wakeful mind. At this level, the teacher becomes the guru.

One's relationship with the vajra master involves surrendering one-self to the teacher as the final expression of egolessness. This allows the practitioner to develop fully the threefold vajra nature: vajra body, vajra speech, and vajra mind. The maturation of devotion into complete sur-rendering is called lote lingkyur in Tibetan. Lote means "trust," ling means "completely," and kyur means "abandoning" or "letting go." So lote ling-kyur means "to trust completely and let go"-to abandon one's ego completely. Without such surrender, there is no way to give up the last vestiges of ego; nor could the teacher introduce the yidam, the essence of egolessness. In fact. without such devotion to the teacher, one might attempt to use the vajrayana teachings to rebuild the fortress of ego.
(I'm sure Malcolm will have some issue or other with the language).

Being a sycophant is unhealthy, but on the other hand each of us needs to continually examine whether the autonomy we seek is actually driven by ego.

BTW mods, this conversation seems to have strayed quite a bit from the OP. Perhaps most of it ought to be a separate thread.
CTR is supreme!

"An example of Padmasambhva’s acting as a father figure for Tibet was the warning that he gave King Trisong Detsen. The New Years celebration was about to be held, which traditionally included horse racing and archery, among the other events. Padmasambhava said, “there shouldn’t be horse racing or archery this time.” But no one listened and the King was killed by the arrow of an unknown assassin at the of the horse racing and archery" CTR

So much for autonomy.

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