Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Seeker12
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Seeker12 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm
Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm


Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.
Man, it seems to me that this type of thing should be more widely known.
There is a huge tendency in Vajrayāna to encourage sycophancy and dependence amongst disciples. Many people do not understand that there are limits to the guru's authority. For example, Sapan also states with great clarity:

If he does not teach according to the words of the Buddha,
even if he is one’s guru, one should remain indifferent.


This is not to say that we can get anywhere on our own in the Buddhist path, The Tattvāvatāra states:

The all-knowing one praises reliance on a guru,
not the independence of a disciple.
A blind person is not independent,
unable to climb a mountain.


Nevertheless, we must temper our understaing of the need to rely on a qualified master with common sense, so we do not wind up creating Buddhist cults which merely keep people imprisoned cages that seem like Dharma but are actually just clever prisons.
:anjali: It's nice to see someone whose words carry weight for many saying such things clearly in a well-balanced way.
Better than if there were thousands of meaningless words is
one meaningful word that on hearing brings peace. Dhp

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7786
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 pm

:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

I feel fortunate to have had multiple teachers (yep, within the Tibetan traditions) that explicitly and strongly encouraged people to be responsible for their own practice, while emphasizing the deep relationship with one's mentors and/or Gurus.

In fact don't think I could "go back" to a naive idea of following a Guru who did not grant me the right to my own autonomy spiritually, to me it is a part of the path, and it is the slavish adherence to replacement daddy-figure that should be the aberration, rather than the other way around. Not all devotion is healthy, and some forms are counter to the path.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:39 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
He cant seem to resist an opportunity to belittle the people who pay for his privileged lifestyle.
You cannot seem to resist an opportunity to belittle Rinpoche in whatever public forums come up.

I don't think it's particularly helpful as a Vajrayana practitioner to slander teachers of the dharma which such ludicrious accusations, teachers who the greatest masters of the last century have said are wisdom beings. This extends to all genuine teachers of the Dharma.

Clearly you do not like his actions or teaching style, that is fine, and you do not have to take him as a teacher. However i'm not exactly clear why as a student of the Vajrayana you completely disregard what the opinion of the lineage holders. Do you think your own perceptions are more valid?

If we are not sure whether a teacher is acceptable or not because they may have actions which we do not like, then we may consult the lineage heads and they will clearly guide us on this issue. This has happened in the case of various Tertons and masters of the past. It's really not so hard, the lama's are not deceptive, they are genuine sources of refuge who can guide us in these cases.

Take for instance Chogyam trungpa rinpoche, though he had actions perceived as odd to many people, Enlightened beings such as the 16th gyalwang Karmapa clearly stated that he was genuine. That is why even among some of the Kagyu elders whose discipline is incredibly pure and strict, we will find they have an immense respect for the Vidyadhara despite having a completely different style themselves or for their own Sangha.

It is in fact an incredibly heavy karmic action to criticize someone who is in fact a Bodhisattva or an enlightened being, it would only pay to be more careful when the great masters in their wisdom say this is so.

But by all means, do as you please.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:45 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:26 pm

You’re kidding I hope.
No, which kind of vajrayana are you practicing? The one that critics the guru? Sorry haven't heard of that one yet. Must be new. Good luck with that.
Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.
Since you are quoting from a Sakya master, it might be helpful to consider the perspective of the current head of the Sakya tradition.

Of course books do not talk, and we can interpret them in different ways, it's always good to consult the living breathing masters of the Vajrayana traditions for clarity on such matters. I can easily provide quotations from masters of all the four lineages that state unequivocally that seeing the Guru as a Buddha is in fact the view of the Vajrayana.

I'll just start with these ones here. He mentions the relationship of Marpa and Milarepa in the first quote as an example ( as most of our great guru's do ) The stories you said have no benefit and just serve to propagate abuse coincidentally.

From "A Buddhist essence teaching.
" "Q. Is it right for a Guru to make extravagant demands on his disciples?
A. Yes. For instance when Marpa was teaching Lama Ngog, he asked him if he had brought all his wealth. Ngog replied that he had left behind only one lame old goat. Marpa sent him back to fetch it. Marpa said that although a lame old goat made no difference to him: he had demanded it to uphold the dignity of the teaching. If you have to offer everything, you must hold back nothing. But the relationship of Guru and disciple is not the relationship of a master and a servant. It is the relationship of a father and son. It is a spiritual relationship, but it must be as warm and close as the relationship of a father and his son. The Guru has a tremendous responsibility to care for his sons who, in turn must follow all the teachings they are given, and keep all their vows."

in the interview "Finding the spiritual master" HH states
"Again, it is extremely important in Vajrayana to find a teacher and to thoroughly investigate his qualities. Once we are convinced that he is a genuine spiritual master, then we can take him as our teacher and receive Vajrayana teachings and initiations from him. Once we have established a master-disciple relationship with this teacher - whatever circumstances may arise - we should never break our bond with our teacher and never abandon our faith in him.

Even if we see faults in our master, we should never see these as faults. Whatever faults we see in the guru, we should see as our own faults. Much like the moon’s reflection on water: if the water is clear, the reflection of the moon is also clear; and if the water is muddy, then the moon’s reflection is blurred. If, due to our obscurations, we find fault with the master, we should always remember to look at this as our own shortcomings, our own faults, not those of the guru.

There are many wonderful stories about ancient Indian masters. These great mahasiddhas often displayed outlandish behaviour and did weird things, very weird things. The disciples who lost faith in their master didn’t progress on the spiritual path, while those who didn’t lose their faith in their master experienced spiritual attainment."

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm

diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:25 pm


He is a Rinpoche so they must necessary.
Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.
That's the view. Maybe it's better you stick with the sutras.
Indeed it is. In general, I rather dislike bringing up teachers and what they say especially in non public settings. I just am not into dragging a sublime beings name into the mud, opening things up for negative perceptions and what not.

At the same time, in discussions like this, I feel the gravity of the conversation is such, and people could indeed be influenced heavily by these things that sometimes it seems relevant to mention these things for the sake of clarity.

For instance, once in a group interview with HHST when someone had mentioned Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, HHST face lit up, I've mentioned other teachers to him, very prominent ones but have never seen such a reaction. He then asked the person with a pleased smile "He's your guru?" as they hesitated for a moment "He's..." HH said with a still smiling expression on his face "He's everything?". Interestingly, in a Mirror divination HH received when he was younger in Tibet, it showed that the previous Dzongsar khyentse chokyi lodro rinpoche was his Karmic link guru.

Thinley norbu Rinpoche has spoke with great clarity on the faults of disturbing or harming other beings faith, as faith it the source of all qualities, I will provide some quotes when I am back home if needed.

However it's also the case, especially in these days when teachers are talking to a mixed crowd of Buddhists and non Buddhists, in their Skillful means and compassion, they do not always emphasize nor go so deep into the teachings of devotion meant for students of the Vajrayana.
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Karma_Yeshe
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:28 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.

That's the view. Maybe it's better you stick with the sutras.
Indeed it is. In general, I rather dislike bringing up teachers and what they say especially in non public settings. I just am not into dragging a sublime beings name into the mud, opening things up for negative perceptions and what not.

At the same time, in discussions like this, I feel the gravity of the conversation is such, and people could indeed be influenced heavily by these things that sometimes it seems relevant to mention these things for the sake of clarity.

For instance, once in a group interview with HHST when someone had mentioned Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, HHST face lit up, I've mentioned other teachers to him, very prominent ones but have never seen such a reaction. He then asked the person with a pleased smile "He's your guru?" as they hesitated for a moment "He's..." HH said with a still smiling expression on his face "He's everything?"

Thinley norbu Rinpoche has spoke with great clarity on the faults of disturbing or harming other beings faith, as faith it the source of all qualities, I will provide some quotes when I am back home if needed.
For real, do you want to be a follower of gurus you think are special or do you want to be liberated and attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentinent beings?

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:34 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:28 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.

That's the view. Maybe it's better you stick with the sutras.
Indeed it is. In general, I rather dislike bringing up teachers and what they say especially in non public settings. I just am not into dragging a sublime beings name into the mud, opening things up for negative perceptions and what not.

At the same time, in discussions like this, I feel the gravity of the conversation is such, and people could indeed be influenced heavily by these things that sometimes it seems relevant to mention these things for the sake of clarity.

For instance, once in a group interview with HHST when someone had mentioned Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, HHST face lit up, I've mentioned other teachers to him, very prominent ones but have never seen such a reaction. He then asked the person with a pleased smile "He's your guru?" as they hesitated for a moment "He's..." HH said with a still smiling expression on his face "He's everything?"

Thinley norbu Rinpoche has spoke with great clarity on the faults of disturbing or harming other beings faith, as faith it the source of all qualities, I will provide some quotes when I am back home if needed.
For real, do you want to be a follower of gurus you think are special or do you want to be liberated and attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentinent beings?
I see no contradiction in your question. What is wrong with acknowledging the qualities of realized masters, some writings are all about it, for example namtars.

This is one of the reasons why Gangteng tulku rinpoche placed the Study of the the Sutra of the recollection of the three jewels as first in the curriculum of his online shedra, he felt it was so important students know and value the qualities of the three jewels from the get go before going into other topics.

However, what you call "special" is relative. HH the gyalwang drukpa has said, it's in fact not miraculous that Milarepa would fly around, what is more miraculous is that we are not able to fly.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27260
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:06 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:45 pm


No, which kind of vajrayana are you practicing? The one that critics the guru? Sorry haven't heard of that one yet. Must be new. Good luck with that.
Sakya Pandita states:

"Criticism" does not refer to criticizing the master out of some slight anger. "Criticism" refers to statements such as "This master is evil, with corrupted discipline, who does not act according to the Dharma, and so on. Such criticisms result in a downfall.

In other words, in order to commit this downfall, one has to make extremely negative statements about a qualified master from whom one has received teachings. Minor criticisms do not constitute a downfall.
Since you are quoting from a Sakya master, it might be helpful to consider the perspective of the current head of the Sakya tradition.
What HHST says is perfect, but your citing it here is beside the point, because he is not contradicting Sakya Pandita, whose small commentary on samaya is quoted universally by everyone in all four schools as authoritative.

In order to have committed the downfall of criticizing a qualified master, one has to go the extreme mentioned by Sapan. The point of mentioning these things is not to encourage people to go around criticizing their gurus. The point of mentioned such things is to relieve people of the anxiety of thinking they have broken samaya merely because they may have uttered a critical word about their gurus in an unguarded moment of affliction. Sapan makes it very clear that such afflicted speech does not constitute a root downfall. A root downfall only occurs if one denies that one's qualified guru is actually a qualified guru. That is what "criticism" (brnyas pa) means.

Now then, in these kinds of discussions is best to keep ones remarks relevant to the topic at hand.

Secondly, In fact, there is no actual samaya to regard to one's root guru as a perfect being (though it is recommended that it is best if one can). Good thing too, since if there was such a samaya, no one would be able to keep samaya at all.

And of course, since in reality virtually no one can maintain this kind of pure conceptual perception, we do not, in general, practice guru yoga with the ordinary form of our guru, we visualize them in the form of a Buddha such as Vajradhāra, or Guru Rinpoche, etc. Why? Because it is recognized maintaining pure perception of our root guru is in fact difficult, and not easy, and for beginners, impossible.

Also, in the Nyingma tradition, minor criticism of one's root guru does not result in a downfall either. Merely having an afflictive verbal response to something the guru does or says simply does not qualify as a downfall.

Finally, the whole point of practicing Dharma is to overcome afflictions. Sometimes our gurus behave strangely. Of course we have to learn to be flexible and not immediately decide we have made a poor choice in gurus and move on. Nevertheless, if while sincerely following a teacher we are overcome with affliction and voice our critical displeasure at this or that thing our guru does, this does not constitute a downfall; and whatever verbal nonvirtue we may have incurred as a result of some minor criticism we may make of our guru is easily rectified —— this is why we have so many methods of purification, from Vajrasattva to the completion stage (yes, this is the best way to purify all downfalls — look it up).

So, when you experience that knee-jerk reflex to go off on something you see that I have said on the forum, think twice about what I have said before you go posting irrelevant rebuttals to things I have not said.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27260
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:09 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:34 pm

However, what you call "special" is relative. HH the gyalwang drukpa has said, it's in fact not miraculous that Milarepa would fly around, what is more miraculous is that we are not able to fly.
And Tulku Orgyen said there is no point since we have airplanes now.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1896
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Josef » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:11 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:39 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:29 pm
He cant seem to resist an opportunity to belittle the people who pay for his privileged lifestyle.
You cannot seem to resist an opportunity to belittle Rinpoche in whatever public forums come up.

I don't think it's particularly helpful as a Vajrayana practitioner to slander teachers of the dharma which such ludicrious accusations, teachers who the greatest masters of the last century have said are wisdom beings. This extends to all genuine teachers of the Dharma.

Clearly you do not like his actions or teaching style, that is fine, and you do not have to take him as a teacher. However i'm not exactly clear why as a student of the Vajrayana you completely disregard what the opinion of the lineage holders. Do you think your own perceptions are more valid?

If we are not sure whether a teacher is acceptable or not because they may have actions which we do not like, then we may consult the lineage heads and they will clearly guide us on this issue. This has happened in the case of various Tertons and masters of the past. It's really not so hard, the lama's are not deceptive, they are genuine sources of refuge who can guide us in these cases.

Take for instance Chogyam trungpa rinpoche, though he had actions perceived as odd to many people, Enlightened beings such as the 16th gyalwang Karmapa clearly stated that he was genuine. That is why even among some of the Kagyu elders whose discipline is incredibly pure and strict, we will find they have an immense respect for the Vidyadhara despite having a completely different style themselves or for their own Sangha.

It is in fact an incredibly heavy karmic action to criticize someone who is in fact a Bodhisattva or an enlightened being, it would only pay to be more careful when the great masters in their wisdom say this is so.

But by all means, do as you please.
I will continue to express my opinion on this matter.
Fear tactics aren’t going to prevent me from openly criticizing these statements.
You can ignore them if you’d like.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1896
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Josef » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 pm

diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:45 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:26 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:25 pm


He is a Rinpoche so they must necessary.
You’re kidding I hope.
No, which kind of vajrayana are you practicing? The one that critics the guru? Sorry haven't heard of that one yet. Must be new. Good luck with that.
The Vajrayana of Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, and Patrul.
It’s working out just fine.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:56 pm


I am sorry, but this following statement is very silly:



These kinds of put-downs are simply not necessary.
He is a Rinpoche so they must necessary.
Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.
It all depends on the level of your purification and realization. It's like going to Paro taktsang. One could go there and just see a mountain, some trees, and a gompa, and think to oneself .. maybe people descriptions of this being such an extraordinary place are a little exaggerated. However as DJKR mentioned in the Bhutanese magazine udumbara, that for beings who have realization, in fact from the moment you pass a particular chorten there is not a single inch of any land not covered in Dakini script.

We can similarly think it's an exaggeration when people talk about the qualities of Great masters, but it in fact, is not. An important nyingma lineage holder once told us due to impure perceptions we are not able to perceive the Vajra body of a great master, but perceive their flesh and blood form. However, there are in fact many instances where people have been able to perceive a Vajra master in a different way.

The gyalwang drukpa has mentioned some students who actually perceive when entering into their teachers room their teachers form as being Vajradhara. Of course different students have seen different perceptions of their teacher depending on circumstance and level.

For example in Tibet it was strongly believed that HH the Dalai lama is not in fact a regular human being, but in fact chenrezig appearing among us. Safe to say most modern students would probably write this off, However, we should pay more attention to the writings of realized masters. For example in a Doha (found in Treasury of elegance) that the First Terchen barway dorje wrote, he described how when visiting Lhasa that night in a mix of sleep and clear light (when many of the masters visions occur ) perceiving the environment as Potala the pure realm of chenrezig, and HH as Chenrezig himself.

The oracle of Tseringma khandro la perceived the present 14th as the 1000 arm chenrezig when he had passed by her and fainted. Garje khamtrul rinpoche described in his autobiography his own vision related to the kalachakra seeing all of The Dalai lamas including the present teaching it in a pure realm. HHDL referred someone to rinpoche for details on the Kalachakra as being the expert on the subject.

"A HO! This beggar, this yogin—I, Barway Dorje—
Went to see the sacred places in the middle of the land.
When I was at the seat of the glorious Lord Tsalpa,
At the end of the night, in the last of my sleep,
While my mind was a mix of sleep and clear light,
I saw a beautiful realm in the west,
In it a mountain and on its peak
A three-storied palace of jewels
In a tent of rainbows.
In the center of this transparent palace,
On a lovely and precious throne, lotus, sun, and moon,
I saw seated the glorious Avalokita.
This was mixed with the sight of central Lhasa itself,
Which spontaneously appeared as a pure realm.
I gained conviction that the Lord Dalai Lama, Vajradhara,
Is Avalokita himself.
The victors, our refuge, emanate through compassionate skill.
They manifest inconceivable variety for the taming of beings.
This is hard for the foolish and infantile to fathom.
So don’t make partisan distinctions;
Let your devotion be impartial and all-inclusive.
May all keep this in mind.
This is our ensuing conversation written down as a song. At the
repeated request of Ringul Lama Jampal Gyaltsen, this was composed
by Barway Dorje. Virtue! "

In more recent times, Khenpo achuk rinpoche of Tibet was widely known to appear in different forms to different students. Some would see syllables, some would see deities on his body, some would see other things. A Lama who I know who was his student told me that once he pointed to his nose and asked the lama if he saw the Ah syllable, at which point the lama admitted he couldn't. However some could, his sister for example could see the noble lady Tara on him. When the gyalwang drukpas father asked him once to look at the tip of his nose on which there was a mole and see the ah, he was able to, and gained conviction in his father as an authentic emanation of Vairochana.

Those who say all of these kind of things are exaggerations IMO demonstrate a lack of Devotion and conviction in the qualities that masters can have. It's understandable being that we grow up in a different country, and have also likely not seen any of these things ourselves.

Tertons themselves are often perceived as being crazy, yet modern students prudently and solidly project how they think rinpoche's should act according to their own ideas of propriety. For instance, Sangye khandro who you posted in another thread as being an exemplary female practitioner was stating in an interview from 2004 that Kusum lingpa rinpoche, while being of course an amazing and genuine master, acted totally crazy, with complete disregard for social etiquette. She said at times that made translating for him quite difficult. For instance, when he would perform puja's in peoples home, instead of throwing the serkyem outside, he would just throw it in their house completely over their walls, she said many people were totally shocked.

Or in the case of Shechen kongtrul rinpoche, who would say whatever was on his mind, Dilgo khyentse rinpoche had quite a difficult time sitting next to him in public with some of the things he said, and had said that he was impossible to be with in a public setting. However, of course Shechen kongtrul rinpoche was one of his main lama's.

To further illustrate this point I will provide a quote by retreat master Lama tratop of Kham provided on the kunzang blog.

"Tertons are always challenging to people because they often act unconventionally. And it’s natural, or not surprising, that during the life of a terton people usually think they’re crazy. (After they pass away, of course, we all make statues of them and worship them and so on.) Or they say, “Well, this is just too much — too many revelations, too many discoveries; this is not possible.” Actually if you learn what they’re really doing and what’s going on, you start to understand that they are emanations of Guru Rinpoche. They seem like ordinary men and women when you meet them, but they’re doing things that are simply beyond our usually experience. For example, they might lapse into a nap for a few minutes and you think, “Well, what is that? He was asleep for two, three minutes.” But as in the case of Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa, since dream time can be very different from waking time, he was able to get detailed instruction on feast dance from Guru Rinpoche and a retinue of dakinis in what for us probably would just look like somebody slumping for a few minutes and coming back out of it. And that’s what they’re doing. They’re doing things like this all the time. And it’s not surprising that we don’t recognize because we don’t it."
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27260
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 pm
diamind wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:25 pm


He is a Rinpoche so they must necessary.
Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.
It all depends on the level of your purification and realization.
Yup.

What you are talking about is a bunch of conceptual proliferation which labels this and that as "pure" as opposed to "impure," "sublime," as opposed to "ordinary."

These are just white and black clouds in the sky. But they don't affect the sky at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27260
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 pm

"Tertons are always challenging to people because they often act unconventionally.
I have had the extreme good fortune of being the disciple of three great tertons. None of them behaved in any strange way. And, they could not be kinder human beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 pm


Right, because rinpoches are infallible by definition and they don't shit anything but sunshine and unicorns.
It all depends on the level of your purification and realization.
Yup.

What you are talking about is a bunch of conceptual proliferation which labels this and that as "pure" as opposed to "impure," "sublime," as opposed to "ordinary."

These are just white and black clouds in the sky. But they don't affect the sky at all.
Was the rest of the conversation not "Conceptual proliferation?" Lmao. Nice write off though.

Anyhow, it's not the case that these things 'may' happen to you when you reach a certain level of realization but they "Will" happen, as one of the principle barom kagyu mahamudra texts details.

DKR has said if you want to know what it's like to be realized, it's something like star wars, and he went to describe how yeshe tsogyal fell asleep for what appeared to be a single moment, yet went to many strange lands, seeing many strange people in search of guru rinpoche. He described realization as being something like that, which I wouldn't be shocked if you disagreed with.

Though of course enlightened beings do not experience these things or relate to them perhaps in the same way that we do with the same "conceptual proliferation's" we cannot deny these things either. It's like the Terton Terdak lingpa who visited to a pure realm, and after going deeper and deeper into inner chambers reached a Tsok feast of dakas and dakinis, he was told that if he did not return he would be there forever, these actions occur in a continuous manner, such as in Zandok palri.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:05 am

I would also like to mention for the sake of clarity, miraculous actions and activities without the life force of bodhichitta are nothing more than parlor tricks and hardly worthy of any consideration.

A great guru's worth is not about the kind of Siddhis he or she can manifest, but rather the degree to which they can benefit sentient beings.

However, if these things are said to not exist, or are just high exaggerations, that is also not accurate, and as in the case of genuine masters, these are for the benefit of beings.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6018
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:07 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:46 pm
DKR has said if you want to know what it's like to be realized, it's something like star wars ...
OK, this:

Image


makes more sense now. :smile:


BTW, it turns out there's a book called "The Dharma of Star Wars". Who knew?
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 pm

"Tertons are always challenging to people because they often act unconventionally.
I have had the extreme good fortune of being the disciple of three great tertons. None of them behaved in any strange way. And, they could not be kinder human beings.
Of course, it's not the case that every terton will act like a mad man if you meet them, but rather that there are instances of this from the very early histories until the present days. I do rejoice though that you were able to be the disciple of three great tertons, you must have tremendous merit.

I know of one Terton who is very conventional, very kind, very humble, and who never does anything mad (quite monastic in conduct). However, there have been very few occasions which he has acted completely off the cuff. These are just brief periods of time, then back to the usual ways. I was present once when this happened at a Tsok, it was completely unusual unlike anything which I have ever experienced.

Sometimes also, in their compassion, they "bring themselves down" in order to relate to sentient beings. I am reminded of Kyabje Dudjom rinpoche, one of his close students had said that, because rinpoche's day and night luminosity had merged he didn't have concepts such as day and night. That the state of these great masters on that level could be said to be "totally out of it" according to normal beings. For example he would be sitting there and he would need to be reminded, "Rinpoche, it's dinner time now.." To which he replied. "oh..." when relating with sentient beings he brought it down to their level as he knew that they could not relate to that. It reminds me of Shakya shri who would sit outside often "in" meditation, and when night fell he was still there. Students would tell him that it was night now and is he going to come inside which he would then reply something to the degree of .. Oh .. the stars are shining"
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:07 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:46 pm
DKR has said if you want to know what it's like to be realized, it's something like star wars ...
OK, this:

Image


makes more sense now. :smile:


BTW, it turns out there's a book called "The Dharma of Star Wars". Who knew?
Exactly.

I loved when he handed Khenpo tsultrim lodro rinpoche a light saber when they were together and said "May the force be with you"

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6018
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on the importance of Mahayana

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am
I loved when he handed Khenpo tsultrim lodro rinpoche a light saber when they were together and said "May the force be with you"

Thank you for pointing that out. I hadn't realized the image above was from such an event. :smile:


I have to say, KTLR really looks like a natural with the lightsaber:

KTLsaber.jpg
KTLsaber.jpg (34.46 KiB) Viewed 473 times
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 49 guests