Recognising reincarnations

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Punya
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Punya » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:06 pm

Points accepted but currently are empowerments being given by anyone who is not a member of the reincarnate or family lineages?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by JKhedrup » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:19 pm

MANY Geshes, Khenpos, Loppons ;)

Punya
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Punya » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:05 pm

Thank you Ven. Since you mention Loppons does this mean it's not just the Gelugpa tradition where this occurs?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by JKhedrup » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:09 pm

Yes.
I have received a permission initiation from a Nyingma khenpo who was neither a tulku nor a family lineage holder.
There are also several Kagyu teacher like this who give initiations. I imagine it is the same story in Sakya, though I sadly don't have much experience with that tradition.

Punya
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Punya » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:09 am

Ok. Thank you for the new perspective. It's not something I've encountered.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

ngodrup
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by ngodrup » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:34 am

Concerning giving wangs, it is definitely the case that there are no clear and absolute rules.
Generally speaking, one is supposed to have done the retreat. But sometimes not.
One doesn't even have to be a Khenpo or Geshe. Retreat experience and permission is enough.
Generally permission is based on realization, but sometimes Bodhicitta.

There's a well known western translator, a lay person, who isn't called "Lama," but has done
many retreats (not even 3 years-- but I think would add up to more than that) who gave wang
when told to do so.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by kirtu » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:55 am

JKhedrup wrote:Yes.
I have received a permission initiation from a Nyingma khenpo who was neither a tulku nor a family lineage holder.
There are also several Kagyu teacher like this who give initiations. I imagine it is the same story in Sakya, though I sadly don't have much experience with that tradition.
In general only high lamas give empowerments in Sakya. However I know of one Sakya khenpo in the US who is not the head of a lineage who does in fact give empowerments as well as a Sakya lama (a khenpo) in Europe who also gives empowerments. But basically in Sakya almost all the time only high lamas (basically certain members of the Khon family or lineage heads of the Ngor or Tsar lineages) give empowerments. In other words Sakya khenpos do not generally give empowerments.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by JKhedrup » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:32 am

Thanks Kirt, that is interesting. I really have such limited exposure to Sakya- not for lack of wanting to know, just that there don't seem to be so many Sakya lamas around so the tradition is not as accessible.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by kirtu » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:18 am

conebeckham wrote: It is possible to recognize the samsaric quality of the Tulku system, (or terma discovery and terton recognition, for that matter) without completely discounting the system, the potential "truth" of Tulku phenomena, or even one's own recognition. That's my point. It's an analysis that is Eyes Wide Open, if you will.
A symposium on this topic, Feb 2013: The Tulku Institution in Tibetan Buddhism, This symposium presented a variety of views on the tulku institution from several notable academics (one of them a recognized tulku). So far I have not seen their published papers so I don't know if they are available online.

Here is a comment on the symposium from Tsadra.
The symposium held this past weekend at the University of San Francisco was a gathering of scholars from around the world who presented papers focused on the “Tulku” (སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་ , sprul sku) institution of Tibetan Buddhism. Organized by professor Tsering Wangchuk and Jake Nagasawa, the conference was the second recent meeting focused on the reincarnation system of Tibetan Buddhism. There were four main panels at the conference, allowing for thirteen seasoned scholars to present their research:
1) Tulkus in Transnational Buddhism: Authentication and Contestation of Hybridity in the Cross-Cultural Reincarnation System
2) Tulkus in Historical Context: Power, Knowledge, and Politics in the Innovation of the Reincarnation Institution
3) Tulkus as a Model of Ideal Beings: Embodying the Enlightened Characteristics
4) Envisioning and Retelling Birth-Stories: Tulku Lineage Narratives and the Quest for Legitimation.
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by hop.pala » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:43 pm

...And no one can verify scientifically,that this is an tulku because can not be verify scientifically.and because we know that you can raise a little genius's children,for example i teach them 5-6 language.I speak not about that reincarnation does not exist,but in the ancient Egyipt was the belief that exist an second body that can live after the death,and was given for the dead several dishes.We can speak about the heaven according to Christian interpretation .We can see several religion,and several explanation of the underconsciousness.So i think tha reincarnation can be explainable,but in the view of the mastering of the underconsciousness.

User avatar
Ayu
Former staff member
Posts: 7010
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Ayu » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:43 pm

hop.pala wrote:...And no one can verify scientifically,that this is an tulku because can not be verify scientifically.and because we know that you can raise a little genius's children,for example i teach them 5-6 language.I speak not about that reincarnation does not exist,but in the ancient Egyipt was the belief that exist an second body that can live after the death,and was given for the dead several dishes.We can speak about the heaven according to Christian interpretation .We can see several religion,and several explanation of the underconsciousness.So i think tha reincarnation can be explainable,but in the view of the mastering of the underconsciousness.
However. It's a matter of point of view.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28724
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:59 pm

kirtu wrote: In general only high lamas give empowerments in Sakya. However I know of one Sakya khenpo in the US who is not the head of a lineage who does in fact give empowerments as well as a Sakya lama (a khenpo) in Europe who also gives empowerments. But basically in Sakya almost all the time only high lamas (basically certain members of the Khon family or lineage heads of the Ngor or Tsar lineages) give empowerments. In other words Sakya khenpos do not generally give empowerments.
And one should remember that the khenpos of Ngor are all from four traditional families, Luding, Thartse, Phande and one other whose name escapes me. Lama Kunga from SF is from the Thartse branch.

The khenpos of Tshar lineage also usually do give empowerments, but then there is also the Chogye Trichen incarnations as well as the Zimwok incarnations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by hop.pala » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:42 pm

However. It's a matter of point of view.
So.Therefore it is underconscious thing the reincarnacion.All thing that happen in the past is underconscious.Arise in the cerebral cortex.But in the part that is not conscious,and then go to normal consciousness.I think.So it is underconscious happeness.The explanation not be expected from Buddha because buddha is underconscious too.The explanation can be correct from the normal consciousness.

Saoshun
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Saoshun » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:57 pm

Reincarnations can be known of people or of ourselfs thru dhyana. You can know past, present and future of people, back rebirths and next rebirths. Some yogis even give tips that where he will be reincarnated and what to do with him to move him back into sadhana from young age. There is pretty famous story of baba lokanath that he suppress his guru so guru would after death be born here and there so become disciple of his own student. There are story of one women from india who meet guru and guru after her realization pass away saying that he wants to be reborn in her as her child. etc there are hundreds of things like this. When you have realization of deeper states you can penetrate beyond time and space with consciousness to know things or two by different means.

Destiny
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:45 am

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Destiny » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

kirtu wrote:
conebeckham wrote: It is possible to recognize the samsaric quality of the Tulku system, (or terma discovery and terton recognition, for that matter) without completely discounting the system, the potential "truth" of Tulku phenomena, or even one's own recognition. That's my point. It's an analysis that is Eyes Wide Open, if you will.
A symposium on this topic, Feb 2013: The Tulku Institution in Tibetan Buddhism, This symposium presented a variety of views on the tulku institution from several notable academics (one of them a recognized tulku). So far I have not seen their published papers so I don't know if they are available online.

Here is a comment on the symposium from Tsadra.
The symposium held this past weekend at the University of San Francisco was a gathering of scholars from around the world who presented papers focused on the “Tulku” (སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་ , sprul sku) institution of Tibetan Buddhism. Organized by professor Tsering Wangchuk and Jake Nagasawa, the conference was the second recent meeting focused on the reincarnation system of Tibetan Buddhism. There were four main panels at the conference, allowing for thirteen seasoned scholars to present their research:
1) Tulkus in Transnational Buddhism: Authentication and Contestation of Hybridity in the Cross-Cultural Reincarnation System
2) Tulkus in Historical Context: Power, Knowledge, and Politics in the Innovation of the Reincarnation Institution
3) Tulkus as a Model of Ideal Beings: Embodying the Enlightened Characteristics
4) Envisioning and Retelling Birth-Stories: Tulku Lineage Narratives and the Quest for Legitimation.
Kirt
Does anyone know if there is a way to get the publication or the transcription of this Symposyum? I am very interested.
Thanks

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 18221
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:15 pm

Punya wrote:Ok. Thank you for the new perspective. It's not something I've encountered.
A couple of my teachers (Karma Kagyu) are authorised to give empowerments and they are not tulku. They are not Tibetans. They are not Geshe/Khenpo.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests