Recognising reincarnations

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zenman
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by zenman » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:53 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
zenman wrote:We have just been lucky to avoid the Eastern hassle :cheers:
Sure and we just have the western hassle of an extraordinarily over-inflated estimation of the value of ego and personal opinion to deal with. :roll:
Hoohohoho :twothumbsup:

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Grigoris
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:26 am

JKhedrup wrote:I think the point Malcolm makes is a pertinent one. From the Vajrayana POV, it is important to view one's Vajra Master as enlightened. This becomes even more essential with regards to Highest Yoga Tantra.
While this is true, at the same time, this does not mean that one does not view other teachers with pure vision too. I can understand if Malcolm considers ChNN a Buddha, but that does not mean he has the right to judge others as false incarnations. Then his view is just reduced to egotistical speculation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by DGA » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:20 pm

on the topic of contemporary wise ones dismissing "medieval beliefs" in practice today...

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p245482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sherab Dorje wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:I think the point Malcolm makes is a pertinent one. From the Vajrayana POV, it is important to view one's Vajra Master as enlightened. This becomes even more essential with regards to Highest Yoga Tantra.
While this is true, at the same time, this does not mean that one does not view other teachers with pure vision too. I can understand if Malcolm considers ChNN a Buddha, but that does not mean he has the right to judge others as false incarnations. Then his view is just reduced to egotistical speculation.
I can't speak for Malcolm, but I'd argue that if someone has concrete evidence that a recognition was made purely for material or political reasons, and not for the qualities of the one recognized, and that person judges that incarnation to be totally false, then that person isn't making egotistical speculation. That person is making an informed judgment. Not all judgments are rational, nor are they all speculative-egotistical, nor are they all matters of faith.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:32 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:I think the point Malcolm makes is a pertinent one. From the Vajrayana POV, it is important to view one's Vajra Master as enlightened. This becomes even more essential with regards to Highest Yoga Tantra.
While this is true, at the same time, this does not mean that one does not view other teachers with pure vision too. I can understand if Malcolm considers ChNN a Buddha, but that does not mean he has the right to judge others as false incarnations. Then his view is just reduced to egotistical speculation.
I did not judge anyone as a false incarnation. In other words, for example, I have no faith in the two Karmapas as incarnations of the 16th Karmapa. But my lack of faith in them as reincarnations has no bearing on whether they are the actual incarnations of the 16th or not. Just to clarify, I have 0 connection with the Karma Kagyu lineage, for whatever reason, just like I have 0 connection with the Gelug lineage.

As far as pure vision goes, if someone has the idea that even one person is not a fully awakened buddha, their vision is not pure. So, if we are going to take about pure vision, we really need to be clear what we mean.

I have no obligation to regard teachers other than my own as Buddhas. I am not even obliged to have pure vision of them (other than the same we try to imagine all sentient beings are buddhas in the context of the universe as a buddhamandala). I have no obligation to regard people who are not my teachers as anything more than ordinary worldly people with no special qualities worth mentioning.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:As far as pure vision goes, if someone has the idea that even one person is not a fully awakened buddha, their vision is not pure.
Exactly. In which case EVEN if you were to see your teacher as a Buddha then the only thing you are doing is indulging in dualistic egotistical speculation: He is a Buddha, He is not a Buddha. They are real tulku, they are not real tulku.

So what is it going to be? Pure vision or aversion/attraction?
I have no obligation to regard teachers other than my own as Buddhas. I am not even obliged to have pure vision of them (other than the same we try to imagine all sentient beings are buddhas in the context of the universe as a buddhamandala). I have no obligation to regard people who are not my teachers as anything more than ordinary worldly people with no special qualities worth mentioning.
You are also not obligated to put one up on the pedastal, while burying the other. So why do it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:06 pm

Jikan wrote:I can't speak for Malcolm, but I'd argue that if someone has concrete evidence that a recognition was made purely for material or political reasons, and not for the qualities of the one recognized, and that person judges that incarnation to be totally false, then that person isn't making egotistical speculation. That person is making an informed judgment. Not all judgments are rational, nor are they all speculative-egotistical, nor are they all matters of faith.
Consider this though: What sort of karma would lead to one being enthroned, as a child, as a false tulku? What kind of karma is generated by the child after having been thrust into this role?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:50 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Jikan wrote:I can't speak for Malcolm, but I'd argue that if someone has concrete evidence that a recognition was made purely for material or political reasons, and not for the qualities of the one recognized, and that person judges that incarnation to be totally false, then that person isn't making egotistical speculation. That person is making an informed judgment. Not all judgments are rational, nor are they all speculative-egotistical, nor are they all matters of faith.
Consider this though: What sort of karma would lead to one being enthroned, as a child, as a false tulku? What kind of karma is generated by the child after having been thrust into this role?
What sort of karma causes anyone to have a high position in samsara?

As for the second question, that really depends on whether they behave virtuously or non-virtuously.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:09 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:As far as pure vision goes, if someone has the idea that even one person is not a fully awakened buddha, their vision is not pure.
Exactly. In which case EVEN if you were to see your teacher as a Buddha then the only thing you are doing is indulging in dualistic egotistical speculation: He is a Buddha, He is not a Buddha. They are real tulku, they are not real tulku.

So what is it going to be? Pure vision or aversion/attraction?
Honestly, greg, I don't think other teachers much. What I do know is that my primary teachers are Buddhas. YMMV.
You are also not obligated to put one up on the pedastal, while burying the other. So why do it?
I didn't. I used the Karmapas merely as an example. I don't really think about them very much.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:What sort of karma causes anyone to have a high position in samsara?
It's not just a high position. It is a high Dharma oriented position. At the very least they will receive a really good Dharma education. That's MUCH more than what most of us will encounter in this lifetime. So it seems to me that even being falsely recognised as a tulku requires craploads of merit.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:27 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:What sort of karma causes anyone to have a high position in samsara?
It's not just a high position. It is a high Dharma oriented position. At the very least they will receive a really good Dharma education. That's MUCH more than what most of us will encounter in this lifetime. So it seems to me that even being falsely recognised as a tulku requires craploads of merit.
It is just a high worldly position.

Whether the person is a Dharma person or not depends on the qualities of the person in the chair, and not the chair itself.

There are a lot people with Dharma in their mouths but not in their hearts. "Dharma" words are not necessarily Dharma.

For example, if we accept that Tibet fell because of the non-virtue of its rulers, for the most part who were they? High tulkus. So you see, these institutional positions are actually quite worldly and there is a huge amount of writing by the people in these position of monastic authority bemoaning the fact that these positions are just worldly fetters that prevent them from practicing.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:It is just a high worldly position.
Hogwash. Being a supervisor in the Public service is a high worldly position. Being a bank manager is a high worldly position. Owning a highly profitable business is a high worldly position. Etc... Being a tulku is not just a high worldly position.
Whether the person is a Dharma person or not depends on the qualities of the person in the chair, and not the chair itself.
No doubt.
There are a lot people with Dharma in their mouths but not in their hearts. "Dharma" words are not necessarily Dharma.
Again I agree.
For example, if we accept that Tibet fell because of the non-virtue of its rulers, for the most part who were they? High tulkus. So you see, these institutional positions are actually quite worldly and there is a huge amount of writing by the people in these position of monastic authority bemoaning the fact that these positions are just worldly fetters that prevent them from practicing.
No doubt there is an administrative function which comes with these positions, but like I said earlier: Even just the education they receive...

There are still serious seeds being planted. We hear stories of flies gaining merit by "mistakenly" circling a stupa and yet you are trying to convince me that there is no merit to being a tulku?

Sorry my friend, but I'm just not buying it.

PS I tend to agree with Lord Jigten Sumgons analysis of karma where the actual act itself, regardless of intention/motivation etc... produces effects too. So...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:10 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Being a tulku is not just a high worldly position.
It is simply a matter of opinion. In my opinion the whole tulku system is a worldly system. Your opinion is different.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:10 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
PS I tend to agree with Lord Jigten Sumgons analysis of karma where the actual act itself, regardless of intention/motivation etc... produces effects too. So...
Another opinion, one that is not supported in the classical Indian texts, but whatever.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:33 pm

Strangely enough, not being enlightened and all, the only thing we are capable of doing is offering opinions.
In my opinion the whole tulku system is a worldly system.
Except when it is being applied to your teacher and his son?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:41 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Strangely enough, not being enlightened and all, the only thing we are capable of doing is offering opinions.
In my opinion the whole tulku system is a worldly system.
Except when it is being applied to your teacher and his son?
Yeshe's enthronement at the monastery of his predecessor is a completely worldly affair.

ChNN himself was never in line to head a monastery. He would have wound up being a disaffiliated teacher whether in the East or the West.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:47 pm

They are still both tulku though. Ratified through the tulku system. And earlier you stated that you have no doubt that ChNN is a tulku.

So, really: You want to have your cake or do you want to eat it? Make up your mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:54 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:They are still both tulku though. Ratified through the tulku system. And earlier you stated that you have no doubt that ChNN is a tulku.
ChNN did not believe in his own status as a tulku for many years.

He only accepted that he was the tulku of Adzom Drugpa later on in life based on some circumstances.

The reason why I accept that ChNN is an actual reincarnation of Adzom Drugpa has to do with those circumstances — primarily, ChNN wrote a commentary, and later on, when he finally got a copy of Adzom Drugpa's collected works, he found a text identical to the one he had written himself in that collection, the same for over a hundred folios. He explained all this in 1992 at the first SMS retreat at Tsegyalgar.

Further, the master that recognized him as the tulku of Adzom Drugpa was his own uncle, the one who attained rainbow body, not Yeshe's predecessor.

But the tulku system is just religious politics, completely and totally worldly in my opinion.
So, really: You want to have your cake or do you want to eat it? Make up your mind.
Accepting that ChNN is the reincarnation of Adzom Drugpa does not entail that I must accept all or even any other recognitions of reincarnations.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by emaho » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:For example, if we accept that Tibet fell because of the non-virtue of its rulers, for the most part who were they? High tulkus.
So Tibet was a theocracy then?
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

Malcolm
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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:12 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For example, if we accept that Tibet fell because of the non-virtue of its rulers, for the most part who were they? High tulkus.
So Tibet was a theocracy then?
No.

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Re: Recognising reincarnations

Post by emaho » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:18 pm

Obviously we have a different understanding of that word, then. :shrug:

:focus:
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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