claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

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Greg
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Greg » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:49 am

It actually would be worth it if we could find an authority willing to write a message to the public editor.

http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/c ... ic-editor/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kristof is notorious for publishing misinformation based on lazy use of bad sources.

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:13 am

Jikan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Jikan wrote:We're talking about an article in a book from 1996, right?

1996?

Surely this has been corrected in the scholarship already.

Nope.
If so, then Buddhist Studies is an anemic discipline indeed.
Just spread very thin...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:16 pm

kirtu wrote:
Yes it is. If the academics get something egregiously wrong it is in fact the job of translators and Dharma teachers to correct the issue. You could publish a paper in something like the Journal of Buddhist Ethics along with a few other translators/Western Dharma teachers. Or you could write an article concerning the misinterpretation and publish it in a magazine like Tricycle. But this kind of misinterpretation needs to be addressed.

Kirt
Sorry Kirt, but no. Here is why -- I spent years correcting Dogyal advocates and so no — did I convince anyone of anything? No.

Further, in order to correct someone like the writer of the op-ed, I would have to explain too many details, many of which are bound by samaya (for exampe, how to explain to an outsider the ritual language of extreme violence found in so many protector petitions?).

And as far as correcting Sperling goes, that also is just a waste of time since he won't listen.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Greg
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Greg » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Yes it is. If the academics get something egregiously wrong it is in fact the job of translators and Dharma teachers to correct the issue. You could publish a paper in something like the Journal of Buddhist Ethics along with a few other translators/Western Dharma teachers. Or you could write an article concerning the misinterpretation and publish it in a magazine like Tricycle. But this kind of misinterpretation needs to be addressed.

Kirt
Sorry Kirt, but no. Here is why -- I spent years correcting Dogyal advocates and so no — did I convince anyone of anything? No.

Further, in order to correct someone like the writer of the op-ed, I would have to explain too many details, many of which are bound by samaya (for exampe, how to explain to an outsider the ritual language of extreme violence found in so many protector petitions?).

And as far as correcting Sperling goes, that also is just a waste of time since he won't listen.

M
I don't think the point is particularly to change Nichols' or Sperling's mind, I think the point is to have a published correction in a reputable source that is accessible to everyone. Plenty of people would be persuaded by this.

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:00 pm

Greg wrote: I don't think the point is particularly to change Nichols' or Sperling's mind, I think the point is to have a published correction in a reputable source that is accessible to everyone. Plenty of people would be persuaded by this.
I am not a reputable source. You would need someone like Thurman for that.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Greg
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Greg » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote: I don't think the point is particularly to change Nichols' or Sperling's mind, I think the point is to have a published correction in a reputable source that is accessible to everyone. Plenty of people would be persuaded by this.
I am not a reputable source. You would need someone like Thurman for that.

M
Thurman has his own credibility problems, but yes an academic would probably be ideal. However, if the Times published your letter to the editor, that would be worthwhile.

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:20 pm

Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote: I don't think the point is particularly to change Nichols' or Sperling's mind, I think the point is to have a published correction in a reputable source that is accessible to everyone. Plenty of people would be persuaded by this.
I am not a reputable source. You would need someone like Thurman for that.

M
Thurman has his own credibility problems, but yes an academic would probably be ideal. However, if the Times published your letter to the editor, that would be worthwhile.

Seriously, I am not the right person for the job.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:34 pm

I'm sure His Holiness would just see it as a practice of a bodhisattva and do nothing. Maybe I will email his website or maybe someone like Thubten Jinpa could say this is not exactly correct, etc. etc.
I should be meditating.

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:48 pm

Duh, can email someone at Maitripa and let them know also.
I should be meditating.

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:22 pm

Okay will let some people know and see what they feel should be correct response.
I should be meditating.

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Grigoris
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:08 pm

Don't hold your breath!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:15 pm

lol,

I hope so :jedi:

(Okay, the force was funny but too much energy--really need a Manjugosha emoticon!)
I should be meditating.

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:15 pm

Okay in motion we'll see.
I should be meditating.

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cloudburst
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by cloudburst » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:46 pm

Malcolm wrote: I would have to explain too many details, many of which are bound by samaya (for exampe, how to explain to an outsider the ritual language of extreme violence found in so many protector petitions?).
How would one explain this? People seem relieved that it is just a prayer to a protector, but the fifth Dalai Lama would have believed this to be a real entity who could be influenced by his prayers, just like a warlord. Given this, isn't it just as disturbing that this religious man is calling for children to be slaughtered? How can we understand his intention?

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:04 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Malcolm wrote: I would have to explain too many details, many of which are bound by samaya (for exampe, how to explain to an outsider the ritual language of extreme violence found in so many protector petitions?).
How would one explain this? People seem relieved that it is just a prayer to a protector, but the fifth Dalai Lama would have believed this to be a real entity who could be influenced by his prayers, just like a warlord. Given this, isn't it just as disturbing that this religious man is calling for children to be slaughtered? How can we understand his intention?

No he is not calling for the slaughter of actual children, this is not his intention. All protector cycles have prayers with imagery just as violent. It is part and parcel of the rhetoric of violence that permeates the religious imagery of protector practices and smad las rites in general. I could cite (and won't) innumerable gore-filled examples where samaya breakers and their off-spring are subject to just as fierce imprecations.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:15 pm

With wisdom. I would start by reading the English translation and in this case you may have to explain parts of it in relation to the two truths, the demon of grasping at an inherent self, imagery and metaphor, etc.

Even though dates and events different--still disturbing. When the Karmapa had to flee I've read he and his attendant barely escaped with their lives. The soldiers were being...well soldiers.

Religion and politics I don't know how those two can be mixed. The sentient beings of this realm at the time did not have the merit (wording?) for a democratic type gov.

Explaining the protector aspect is more difficult.

I would pray to Manjugosha and Lokeshvara, contemplate, and then proceed.
I should be meditating.

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kirtu
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by kirtu » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not a reputable source. You would need someone like Thurman for that.

M
Thurman has his own credibility problems, but yes an academic would probably be ideal. However, if the Times published your letter to the editor, that would be worthwhile.

Seriously, I am not the right person for the job.
Because we have so many Khenpo-grade or near-Khenpo grade Western teachers and translators around.

Oh, wait.... we don't. You can make the argument (in fact you did). Therefore you have elected yourself (in a way).

It would be best to approach someone like Thurman or one of a handful of other academics and author the response. However you will have to at least get it started.

As for samaya - review the Tricycle article regarding Kelsang Gyatso and the Demon Ghost from around 1998. I agree that this is a difficult subject. It would be less difficult in an academic paper because it can be treated from a religious studies perspective. You are a smart man. You can figure it out.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:33 pm

kirtu wrote: It would be less difficult in an academic paper because it can be treated from a religious studies perspective. You are a smart man. You can figure it out.
I have other more pressing things to do, and I don't write academic papers.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Son of Buddha
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by Son of Buddha » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:09 pm

lorem wrote:prob regarding the forced conversion of the Jonangpa monasteries to Gelukpa. I doubt the Great Fifth gave an order like that.

The past is the past, I only care about the present, that includes the Dali Lama, I only care about how the DL acts in the present. :group:

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lorem
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Re: claim about Fifth Dalai Lama

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:24 pm

I already contacted somebody who has a contact at Maitripa College. It will be passed along and then they have the resources to do something if necessary.
I should be meditating.

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