Samaya in Vajrayāna

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Malcolm
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Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:26 pm

lorem wrote:Okay. Makes sense. Berzin's samaya is to clarify. Our's is not. I dig that.

EDIT: But as Buddhism comes to the West it may change. Internet society very open about things and the whole social justice aspect very strong in psyche/culture(?)

EDIT 2: Yes. Four-faced Mahakala could not be shown, only in Brahmin form, but Geluk changed that.
As for the second point, no, the Gelugp's didn't change that. One still should never display the form of Caturmukha Mahākala.

Samayas don't change just because the teachings are brought from one culture to another — for example, the samayas did not change their character because Tibetans imported Vajrayāna from India. Therefore, we should not expect them to be mutable just because we live in the West.

Samayas are something taught in the tantras. Regardless of what others may do, I encourage people to follow them according to how they have been understood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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lorem
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:34 pm

Okay you won me over. Samaya is very important and I would never want to break samaya. Anything that would weaken the teachings of the Buddha should be let go of.
I should be meditating.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:53 pm

how far do you take that?
I strive to keep samaya, especially since many people have their own feeling about tibetan buddhism and vajrayana it is better to do so. but what about things like images of one's yidam on the home shrine? or books on the bookself?

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lorem
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:09 pm

I lived in studio kinda hard to cover shrine. I would put protector and torma in cabinet with door to shut. Other times was out. Balance these things a little difficult sometimes.
I should be meditating.

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Malcolm
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:how far do you take that?
I strive to keep samaya, especially since many people have their own feeling about tibetan buddhism and vajrayana it is better to do so. but what about things like images of one's yidam on the home shrine? or books on the bookself?
I do not allow people without empowerment in my shrineroom.

I keep my images covered when common people are around as much as possible.

HE Ratnavajra gave me an image once with explicit instructions never to show it to someone who had not had the empowerment itself. So I largely try to observe this principle myself.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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byamspa
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by byamspa » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:51 pm

I have certain things on my shrine that i simply put away somewhere when people like my cleaning service come. Other things are covered unless in use. Other things are kept out of reach of my cats... I have one kitty who is obsessed with the idea that she *must* bite my mala, especially if its in use :)
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

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lorem
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by lorem » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:40 pm

Oh. Oops. Okay. I get it.

Actually I do have a question though. I have a son and I have been totally practicing around him, etc...protectors, everything. In Tibet do they "hide" this from children?
I should be meditating.

ngodrup
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by ngodrup » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:14 pm

It Tibet, you grow up in the Dharma. Especially if you're in a yogi family.
H. H. Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche was very clear and eager on this point.
Children *must* sit with the parents when the parents are meditating and
taught the meaning as possible.

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Ayu
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Ayu » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Children who grow up with it are used to it. My children never wonder what I am doing. It's normal - and that's why they are not curious.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Nick r » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:47 am

I'm not sure if this is relevant to this discussion or not, but I keep everything secret from just about everyone besides my wife and daughter. I find that many people have preconceived notions and it quickly turns into a debate or it may make them uncomfortable. Its just easier that way.
Do not seek Truth- only cease to cherish opinions

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:28 am

I certainly agree with keeping it secret, but I wonder specifically about an image of a yidam on my shrine and books on the bookshelf.
Just one picture in a frame I could put away. (though I don't know how I'd feel about that)
But the books on the shelf..?

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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Sönam » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:01 am

The general rule is simple ... if you want to keep a "pure" relation with an object, a book, a statue or what ever object related with your practice, you do not allow it to be shared with someone having not the capacity to keep it in a pure relation, by ignorance or "common opinions" about it. This is, in this case, the samaya.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:20 am

"The general rule is simple ... if you want to keep a "pure" relation with an object, a book, a statue or what ever object related with your practice, you do not allow it to be shared with someone having not the capacity to keep it in a pure relation, by ignorance or "common opinions" about it. This is, in this case, the samaya."

That is very well put.

Josephine1308
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Josephine1308 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:35 am

I do understand the comments about samaya, expressed here and I agree with them. But, just from another perspective, when everything is suffused with the Divine, what is there to protect and from whom?

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Grigoris
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:21 am

Josephine1308 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:35 am
I do understand the comments about samaya, expressed here and I agree with them. But, just from another perspective, when everything is suffused with the Divine, what is there to protect and from whom?
This is a nice thought. Do you think you can maintain it during an assault? In the face of a serious temptation? Probably not, right? So they are there to protect us from suffering, from self-cherishing and self-grasping.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Simon E. » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am

Josephine1308 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:35 am
I do understand the comments about samaya, expressed here and I agree with them. But, just from another perspective, when everything is suffused with the Divine, what is there to protect and from whom?
How do you understand 'the Divine' ? How would you define it?
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Tenma
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Tenma » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:how far do you take that?
I strive to keep samaya, especially since many people have their own feeling about tibetan buddhism and vajrayana it is better to do so. but what about things like images of one's yidam on the home shrine? or books on the bookself?
I do not allow people without empowerment in my shrineroom.

I keep my images covered when common people are around as much as possible.

HE Ratnavajra gave me an image once with explicit instructions never to show it to someone who had not had the empowerment itself. So I largely try to observe this principle myself.
Uh oh. So if I made a history project on the classical period and drew pictures of the Buddha, Green Tara, Manjushri, Vajrapani, Chenrezig, and Saraswati, I am officially breaking my samaya and blessing the images with "Om Ye Dharma" and Om Ah Hum was a bad idea? What does one do if they already turned their project in and they now wish to purify this obscuration?

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Malcolm
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:57 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:how far do you take that?
I strive to keep samaya, especially since many people have their own feeling about tibetan buddhism and vajrayana it is better to do so. but what about things like images of one's yidam on the home shrine? or books on the bookself?
I do not allow people without empowerment in my shrineroom.

I keep my images covered when common people are around as much as possible.

HE Ratnavajra gave me an image once with explicit instructions never to show it to someone who had not had the empowerment itself. So I largely try to observe this principle myself.
Uh oh. So if I made a history project on the classical period and drew pictures of the Buddha, Green Tara, Manjushri, Vajrapani, Chenrezig, and Saraswati, I am officially breaking my samaya and blessing the images with "Om Ye Dharma" and Om Ah Hum was a bad idea? What does one do if they already turned their project in and they now wish to purify this obscuration?
You are fine, these bodhisattvas are from lower tantra.Om ye dharma is a general mantra, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tenma
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Tenma » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:57 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 pm


I do not allow people without empowerment in my shrineroom.

I keep my images covered when common people are around as much as possible.

HE Ratnavajra gave me an image once with explicit instructions never to show it to someone who had not had the empowerment itself. So I largely try to observe this principle myself.
Uh oh. So if I made a history project on the classical period and drew pictures of the Buddha, Green Tara, Manjushri, Vajrapani, Chenrezig, and Saraswati, I am officially breaking my samaya and blessing the images with "Om Ye Dharma" and Om Ah Hum was a bad idea? What does one do if they already turned their project in and they now wish to purify this obscuration?
You are fine, these bodhisattvas are from lower tantra.Om ye dharma is a general mantra, etc.
In that case, does that mean Himalayanart, Khan Academy, and technically every art museum and art school is breaking their samaya and corrupting others by showing ancient antiques of High Tantra Deities?

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Grigoris
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Re: Samaya in Vajrayāna

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:38 am

Tenma wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 pm
In that case, does that mean Himalayanart, Khan Academy, and technically every art museum and art school is breaking their samaya and corrupting others by showing ancient antiques of High Tantra Deities?
You are mistakenly assuming they have samaya.

But you should not be concerning yourself with other's samaya anyway, you should try working on yours.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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