Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

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Astus
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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Astus » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:As above, one cannot consider blessing protective amulets as falling under the heading of Vajrayāna practice, much less Yidam deity practice.
I did not mean yidams are used in practice by followers of Zen or other schools, it's just that I did not see people questioning the validity of it (except for some I have only heard of who despise Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism for some reason, but they are hardly if ever known among Western Buddhists).

Hanshan Deqing wrote:

"You may also recite mantras to receive the secret seal of the Buddhas; it will alleviate your hindrances. This is because all the secret mantras are the seals of the Buddhasí diamond mind. When you use them, it is like holding an indestructible diamond thunderbolt that can shatter everything. Whatever comes close to it will be demolished into dust motes. The essence of all the esoteric teachings of all Buddhas and ancestral masters are contained in the mantras. Therefore, it is said that, “All Tathagatas in the ten directions attained unsurpassable and correct perfect enlightenment through such mantras.” Even though the Buddhas have said this clearly, the lineage ancestral masters, fearing that these words may be misunderstood, have kept this knowledge a secret and do not use this method. Nevertheless, in order to derive power from using a mantra, you must practice it regularly after a long and extensive period of time. Yet, even so, you should never anticipate or seek miraculous response from using it."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by hop.pala » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:28 pm

The Varayana Tantra is not teached by Buddha because it is form of tantra where the tantra is strongly mixed with shamanism.The tibetan buddhist "godness"and they name was not in existence as the historical Buddha live.Only so:5 skanda from hinajana,and 5 skanda and 5 god from tibetan buddhism.If we ignore the 5 god,and think that it is about 5 skanda,than Buddha after all teached the tantra.Maybe the exalted deification is problem,but its derive not from tibetan buddhism,but from the whole mahajana buddhism.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
lorem wrote:
Okay so you are saying the guru practice at the beginning of Jamgon Kongtrul's The Great Path of Awakening is actually a veneration because it is lacking some elements of the full guru sadhanas?
Kongtrul indicates that at the beginning of practicing mind training, one should do guru yoga as a preliminary. However, he does not detail how that is to be done.

M
Guru yoga is a central aspect of the Tonglen aspect/practice of mind training (Lojong).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Meido » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:49 pm

Astus wrote:I did not mean yidams are used in practice by followers of Zen or other schools, it's just that I did not see people questioning the validity of it (except for some I have only heard of who despise Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism for some reason, but they are hardly if ever known among Western Buddhists).
Exactly. Again, my only statement was that Zen does not negate the existence of ishta-devata (meaning, that it does not negate the validity of such practices...which is what I took the OP's assertion to be). Shumon Mujintoron is one text that devotes some discussion to a Japanese Zen (Rinzai) view of Tendai and Shingon practices in particular, and it clearly asserts their validity as Buddhadharma (though naturally within its own hierarchy of traditions).

I am not completely unfamiliar with yidam practice. I mentioned the Marici blessing amulets only as an example of everyday Zen engagement with deities that figure in such practices (and mostly because I was literally working on their prep at that moment). The ceremony for empowering these involves mantra, mudra and embodiment as the deity. But I do not call this yidam practice, and since Zen generally doesn't use kanjo but rather takes seeing nature to be the necessary entry into practice, I do not call such things "Vajrayana", whatever their origins.

Sorry for Zen distraction in the Tibetan forum. It was intended to express support.

~ Meido
Last edited by Meido on Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:53 pm

Meido wrote:
Astus wrote:I did not mean yidams are used in practice by followers of Zen or other schools, it's just that I did not see people questioning the validity of it (except for some I have only heard of who despise Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism for some reason, but they are hardly if ever known among Western Buddhists).
Exactly. Again, my only statement was that Zen does not negate the existence of ishta-devata (meaning, that it does not negate the validity of such practices...which is what I took the OP's assertion to be). Shumon Mujintoron is one text that devotes some discussion to a Japanese Zen (Rinzai) view of Tendai and Shingon practices in particular, and it clearly asserts their validity as Buddhadharma (though naturally within its own hierarchy of traditions).

I am not completely unfamiliar with yidam practice. I mentioned the Marici blessing amulets only as an example of everyday Zen engagement with deities that figure in such practices (and mostly because I was literally working on their prep at that moment). The ceremony for empowering these involves mantra, mudra and embodiment as the deity. But I do not call this yidam practice, and since Zen generally doesn't use kanjo but rather takes seeing nature to be the necessary entry into practice, I do not call such things "Vajrayana", whatever their origins.

Sorry for Zen distraction in the Tibetan forum. Had meant to express support, actually.

~ Meido
If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you, than this is exactly what yidam practice is. However, he difficulty lies in how this transmission is communicated from one generation to another. If there is no need for empowerment, i.e, if the idea is that one can simply pick up a text, recite mantras, perform mudras, and so on, this really does not qualify.

I appreciate your expression of supporrt, and understood it as such, but in order to prevent confusion these distinctions must be made.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Astus » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you, than this is exactly what yidam practice is.
Do you mean that visualisation practices like those found in the Pratyutpannasamadhi Sutra and the Amitayurdhyana Sutra count as yidam practice?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by hop.pala » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:17 pm

If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you
It is only addressed to your causal consciosness.The causal conscuiousness have visualization too.White pictures.Can imagine the causal consciousness in white picture so that all is only white.But it is not the buddha consciousness.It is one level under the buddha consciousness.It is only for the awakening of the bodhicitta.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:21 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you, than this is exactly what yidam practice is.
Do you mean that visualisation practices like those found in the Pratyutpannasamadhi Sutra and the Amitayurdhyana Sutra count as yidam practice?
I clarified this — and no.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you, than this is exactly what yidam practice is.
Do you mean that visualisation practices like those found in the Pratyutpannasamadhi Sutra and the Amitayurdhyana Sutra count as yidam practice?
I clarified this — and no.
In addition to the parameters of "self visualization," or "inviting the deity in front," there must be "empowerment" of some sort. That's clear in all Vajrayana schools and lineages, whether Tibetan or not--and it's clear in Malcolm's posts, as well.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Astus » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:14 pm

conebeckham wrote:In addition to the parameters of "self visualization," or "inviting the deity in front," there must be "empowerment" of some sort. That's clear in all Vajrayana schools and lineages, whether Tibetan or not--and it's clear in Malcolm's posts, as well.
Yes, that's clear. My response was a result of a small surprised curiosity that came from focusing only on his short definition of yidam practice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:18 pm

Got it! I also added the bit about Malcolm's posts after realizing he'd already pretty much said the same thing..... :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by lorem » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:35 pm

conebeckham wrote:In addition to the parameters of "self visualization," or "inviting the deity in front," there must be "empowerment" of some sort. That's clear in all Vajrayana schools and lineages, whether Tibetan or not--and it's clear in Malcolm's posts, as well.
Why not? Yes seems like a true statement except for:

1) If you were a higher-level bodhisattva you could just enter the mandala of a deity, i.e. Tilopa and most likely Lama Shang.

2) You do the practice with the permission of the lama to habitualize yourself until you get the empowerment and then it will ripen--hopefully into full bloom because of the prior "heavy lifting".

There are a couple other scenarios I've thought of but tired right now so can't remember them. :smile:

EDIT EDIT Just get the transmission.
I should be meditating.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Shadok » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:07 pm

Do you mean Gautama? I don't think he taught when he was in Gautama's body. But I do believe he continued teaching even after he left that human form. It is my understanding that Vajrayanas believe that mind continue to exist even after enlightenment. It may or may not take form but it doesn't disappear in thin air.
I noticed many Theravadins believe that mind ceases to exist after the enlightenment. May be that is why it is so hard for them to understand this.
This just my opinions as a newbie. :)

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:09 pm

lorem wrote: 1) If you were a higher-level bodhisattva you could just enter the mandala of a deity, i.e. Tilopa and most likely Lama Shang.
Nope.
2) You do the practice with the permission of the lama to habitualize yourself until you get the empowerment and then it will ripen--hopefully into full bloom because of the prior "heavy lifting".
Nope. You and the lama in question just go to lower realms, as is clearly taught by the Buddha in the Mahāmudratilaka tantra among others.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by hop.pala » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:21 pm

noticed many Theravadins believe that mind ceases to exist after the enlightenment. May be that is why it is so hard for them to understand this.
This just my opinions as a newbie
Because the idiot underconciousness will lead you.After enlightenment you will newer sleep.Only the idiot ,know-nothing buddhist debate that the enlightened can no more sleep.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by lorem » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
lorem wrote: 1) If you were a higher-level bodhisattva you could just enter the mandala of a deity, i.e. Tilopa and most likely Lama Shang.
Nope.
2) You do the practice with the permission of the lama to habitualize yourself until you get the empowerment and then it will ripen--hopefully into full bloom because of the prior "heavy lifting".
Nope. You and the lama in question just go to lower realms, as is clearly taught by the Buddha in the Mahāmudratilaka tantra among others.
I need to review viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16286&start=340 EDIT since it's locked I don't know if there is any real purpose to discussion.
I should be meditating.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:27 pm

lorem wrote:I need to review viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16286&start=340 EDIT since it's locked I don't know if there is any real purpose to discussion.
You can still read it and, if you like, refer to it or quote from it here.
:coffee:
Kim

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by lorem » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:32 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
lorem wrote:I need to review viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16286&start=340 EDIT since it's locked I don't know if there is any real purpose to discussion.
You can still read it and, if you like, refer to it or quote from it here.
:coffee:
Kim
Okay will do. :reading:
I should be meditating.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Matylda » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Meido wrote:
Astus wrote:I did not mean yidams are used in practice by followers of Zen or other schools, it's just that I did not see people questioning the validity of it (except for some I have only heard of who despise Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism for some reason, but they are hardly if ever known among Western Buddhists).
Exactly. Again, my only statement was that Zen does not negate the existence of ishta-devata (meaning, that it does not negate the validity of such practices...which is what I took the OP's assertion to be). Shumon Mujintoron is one text that devotes some discussion to a Japanese Zen (Rinzai) view of Tendai and Shingon practices in particular, and it clearly asserts their validity as Buddhadharma (though naturally within its own hierarchy of traditions).

I am not completely unfamiliar with yidam practice. I mentioned the Marici blessing amulets only as an example of everyday Zen engagement with deities that figure in such practices (and mostly because I was literally working on their prep at that moment). The ceremony for empowering these involves mantra, mudra and embodiment as the deity. But I do not call this yidam practice, and since Zen generally doesn't use kanjo but rather takes seeing nature to be the necessary entry into practice, I do not call such things "Vajrayana", whatever their origins.

Sorry for Zen distraction in the Tibetan forum. Had meant to express support, actually.

~ Meido
If there is visualization of oneself as a deity, or you invite a deity in front of you, than this is exactly what yidam practice is. However, he difficulty lies in how this transmission is communicated from one generation to another. If there is no need for empowerment, i.e, if the idea is that one can simply pick up a text, recite mantras, perform mudras, and so on, this really does not qualify.

I appreciate your expression of supporrt, and understood it as such, but in order to prevent confusion these distinctions must be made.
I am very reluctant to write about it, but yes indeed there is such thing within zen tradition. However it is reserved for "graduate" priests, so to say... And there is clear vision of dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya as well, what is done mostly in 100day retreat which is a requirement to perform certain rituals later. Rereat may or may not be strict, however the room of the retreat person by no means could be entered by anyone else. Due to certain visual set up of special altar etc. As for the lineage... its origin is mostly tendai, some lineages come from shingon and for example in soto zen it is reserved for people who did receive dharma transmission and have sizeable training already.
Dharma transmission includes things like abhisheka and proper procedure including the use of abhisheka water, empowering the water, mantras mudras etc. etc. and taking the proper form at that time... I mean non-human form..

Well,still I guess it is not vajrayana practice, however zen tradition is much vaster and profound than it is known in the West... Rev. Meido made some very good points about it. Anyway I would like to return to my first words, I am reluctant about these things beacause mostly they are spread under the oath of secrecy... the written material comes always from one's own lineage, in form of hand written private notes one writes while listening to the master.

And it is difficult to communicate with other individuals holding similar transmissions, since there is almost no random exchange of info between lineages. And it is strictly observed. However there are some groups of zen teachers in Japan who belong to the very same circle and they collect their private materials and publish it for themselves of course. In these way they try to preserve precious teachings. But even in those collections not all is written, there are always certain points where it is indicated - kuden, which means that further instruction one must hear directly from the mouth of a teacher.

And finally... generally it is not for common practicioners, beginners, etc. for years one has to focus on zazen or what master says, before one could enter the other part safely. There is certain degree of maturity requiered at that point.

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Re: Did the historical Buddha taught Vajrayana Tantra?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:43 am

Matylda wrote: I am very reluctant to write about it, but yes indeed there is such thing within zen tradition. However it is reserved for "graduate" priests, so to say... And there is clear vision of dharmakaya, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya as well, what is done mostly in 100day retreat which is a requirement to perform certain rituals later. Rereat may or may not be strict, however the room of the retreat person by no means could be entered by anyone else. Due to certain visual set up of special altar etc. As for the lineage... its origin is mostly tendai, some lineages come from shingon and for example in soto zen it is reserved for people who did receive dharma transmission and have sizeable training already.
Dharma transmission includes things like abhisheka and proper procedure including the use of abhisheka water, empowering the water, mantras mudras etc. etc. and taking the proper form at that time... I mean non-human form..
This is Mantrayāna.
Well,still I guess it is not vajrayana practice...
As I said, then these are proper Mantrayāna practices.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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