Lama and trust

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quince
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Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:35 pm

Hi, i was wondering how much you seek the advise of your Lama? I mean do you ask him for advice for your personal life not related to dharma practice?

Also, did somebody here doubted their Lama judging by the condition of sangha members around you?

Do you think faith is possible without trust? Can one change Lama in the middle of ngondro? Anyway i dont see him anymore he would hardly remember me. He closed our center here. Wouldnt be a big deal to change, would it?

I would really appreciate your input. I dont trust my Lama anymore and i cant continue with ngondro and i still have mandala offering and Guru yoga to do. Stopping practice feels very bad, but i just cant force myself to continue. Cant stop neither. Please advice.

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Ayu
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Ayu » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:33 pm

quince wrote:Hi, i was wondering how much you seek the advise of your Lama? I mean do you ask him for advice for your personal life not related to dharma practice?

Also, did somebody here doubted their Lama judging by the condition of sangha members around you?

Do you think faith is possible without trust? Can one change Lama in the middle of ngondro? Anyway i dont see him anymore he would hardly remember me. He closed our center here. Wouldnt be a big deal to change, would it?

I would really appreciate your input. I dont trust my Lama anymore and i cant continue with ngondro and i still have mandala offering and Guru yoga to do. Stopping practice feels very bad, but i just cant force myself to continue. Cant stop neither. Please advice.
In my point of view my ngöndro is not only connected with the lama but also especially with the Buddhas. It is possible to "change" the teacher and also to have more than one lama.
And it is quite good to continue a practice when hindrances occur - if it is really dharma practice.
(Edit: ) And however it is possible. On the other hand dharma practice should not be a stress.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:06 pm

Thank you for your reply. What about the other questions, how far do you trust your lama?

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:24 pm

Dharma practice is unfortunatelly 90% of the time stress for already too long. I know it is good to practice when there are obstacles, but as no improvement is happening i dont see the point to continue that way. There is something wrong and i thought i should change Lama. He wouldnt care from one side, i might actually be able to continue practice. All is good.

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Paul
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Paul » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:25 pm

quince wrote:I mean do you ask him for advice for your personal life not related to dharma practice?
Dharma related things only. I tend to think a lot of other stuff is a waste of their time.
Also, did somebody here doubted their Lama judging by the condition of sangha members around you?
No, other students have their own issues. A lama can have some crazy people following them around and of course have a varying level of skill/success in sorting them out, but in general it's not that good a way of judging a lama.
Do you think faith is possible without trust?
They're the same thing in dharma, basically.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Malcolm
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:29 pm

Ayu wrote:
quince wrote:Hi, i was wondering how much you seek the advise of your Lama? I mean do you ask him for advice for your personal life not related to dharma practice?

Also, did somebody here doubted their Lama judging by the condition of sangha members around you?

Do you think faith is possible without trust? Can one change Lama in the middle of ngondro? Anyway i dont see him anymore he would hardly remember me. He closed our center here. Wouldnt be a big deal to change, would it?

I would really appreciate your input. I dont trust my Lama anymore and i cant continue with ngondro and i still have mandala offering and Guru yoga to do. Stopping practice feels very bad, but i just cant force myself to continue. Cant stop neither. Please advice.
In my point of view my ngöndro is not only connected with the lama but also especially with the Buddhas. It is possible to "change" the teacher and also to have more than one lama.
And it is quite good to continue a practice when hindrances occur - if it is really dharma practice.
(Edit: ) And however it is possible. On the other hand dharma practice should not be a stress.
One's gurus is the only connection with the Buddhas one has, therefore they are even more kind the Buddhas.

However, there is an instruction by the founder of the Jonang monastery, Chöje Kunpang:
  • “Sometimes, one meditates on a Guru in whom one has no faith, dissolve all gurus in whom one has faith into him. Sometimes, one meditates on a Guru in whom one has faith, dissolve all Guru in whom one has no faith into him. One should have the faith that all of one’s Gurus are the same.”
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ayu
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Ayu » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:43 pm

It is said, one should examine the teacher for 12 years...

I just ask my teacher for dharma issues, and mostly in a question&answers-time at a lecture. He is very busy. Three times I asked him already in personal interview about my meditation.

From first sight I had a feeling like coming home, when I met him. But I was also sceptical for longer time. The longer I observed him and listened to him the more I was convinced. Now I see him like my father.

Here are many interesting articles about the spiritual student-teacher relationship:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav ... 01887.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@Malcolm: I wrote "in my point of view". There are not only good teachers out there in this world and a little bit scepticism seems to be healthy, sometimes. I'm sorry to say that.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:52 pm

I know this Lama for less than 12 yrs but i cant continue with him anymore, and since i have no other lama i guess i will have to find one. Do you think same ngondro will count with the new lama? Is it important to stay in the same tradition. By the way, my current Lama might be a very good one, just not for my capacity, etc.

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Ayu
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Ayu » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:55 pm

What (from your ngöndro practices) counts or not, depends on the lama - and you.
It seems to me: different lama, different rules.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:12 pm

Now i just have to find a new lama and meanwhile i guess i ll just do some shamata. I should visualize a lama in the place of Guru Vajradhara. Do you know why i still have obstacles after vajrasattva? I thought vajrasattva removes obstacles. Why did i reach this point to not want my Lama (very softly speaking! ) anymore.

pemachophel
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by pemachophel » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:49 pm

Quince,

Just a thought, but you might try asking Lama Dawa (http://www.lamadawa.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://www.saraswatibhawan.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) for a mirror divination asking Who is your karmically destined Lama for this lifetime. This is a common question people ask Lama Dawa and I've heard some pretty amazing (and convincing) answers.

Good luck and best wishes.

Oh, and BTW, about still having obstacles after doing one bum Vajrasattvas, only a Buddha knows the extent of your karma. While some people may be cleansed by a single bum, in this day and age, it's really not much. I'm not going to say how many yig-gya I've said, but it is many times more than one bum and I'm sure it'd be good if I did as many bum more.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:00 pm

I am sooooo fed up with this buddhism i will really make a break before finding a new lama. Anyway. Its been too tough for too long. I am not ready i guess. It was a mistake to start ngondro. And this is another thing i dont agree with my Lama now. He misjudged me. He should know better weather to give me ngondro or not.

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Ayu
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Ayu » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Avoiding confusion in the spiritual student-teacher relationship:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... acher.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Empirical Facts about the Spiritual Student-Teacher Relationship
To avoid confusion in the spiritual student-teacher relationship, we need to acknowledge certain empirical facts:

- Almost all spiritual seekers progress through stages along the spiritual path.
- Most practitioners study with several teachers during their lifetimes and build up different relationships with each.
- Not every spiritual teacher has reached the same level of accomplishment.
- The type of relationship appropriate between a specific seeker and a specific teacher depends upon the spiritual level of each.
- People usually relate to their teachers in progressively deeper manners as they advance along the spiritual path.
- Because the same teacher may play different roles in the spiritual life of each seeker, the most appropriate relationship each seeker has with that teacher may be different.

Levels of Spiritual Teachers and of Spiritual Seekers
Thus, there are many levels of spiritual teachers and of spiritual seekers. There are:

- Buddhism professors to give information like at a university,
- Dharma instructors to show how to apply Dharma to life,
- meditation trainers to teach methods similar to teaching tai-ch’i or yoga,
- spiritual mentors differentiated as to the level of vows they give the student: lay or monk vows, bodhisattva vows, or tantric vows.

Correspondingly, there are:

- students of Buddhism wishing to gain information,
- pupils of Dharma wishing to learn how to apply Dharma to life,
- meditation trainees wishing to learn methods for relaxing or training the mind,
- disciples wishing to improve future lives, gain liberation, or gain enlightenment, and are ready to take some level of vows to help reach these goals. Even if disciples wish to improve this lifetime, they see this as a stepping stone on the way to liberation and enlightenment.
....
There is much to read and think about it.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

quince
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:18 pm

It's all too complicated. And sad. Just want it all gone.

DGA
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:46 pm

quince wrote:It's all too complicated. And sad. Just want it all gone.
Samsara is much, much worse.

I hope you find a Dharma path that works for you, to ease your struggles and to empty samsara.

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Malcolm
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:52 pm

Ayu wrote:
@Malcolm: I wrote "in my point of view". There are not only good teachers out there in this world and a little bit scepticism seems to be healthy, sometimes. I'm sorry to say that.
Since it is very difficult to find a perfect teacher these days, the instruction is to find one whose qualities outweigh their faults by a large margin. This is not hard.

As long as one chooses one's teachers with reasonable care, then the fault of lack of devotion can only come from one's own side.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

quince
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:00 pm

If i lack devotion what could i do... I did everything that Lama told me. Do i have to struggle for lacking devotion?

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Malcolm
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:10 pm

quince wrote:If i lack devotion what could i do... I did everything that Lama told me. Do i have to struggle for lacking devotion?
If one lacks devotion, but there is no real fault in the teacher, then you must examine your own mind. In any event, the best thing to do is continue with your practice. You have not finished gathering accumulations.

It is also fine if you take teachings from other qualified teachers, either in your lineage or from some other lineage.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Lama and trust

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:11 pm

quince wrote:It's all too complicated. And sad. Just want it all gone.

It is not at all complicated. Do you wish to be free of samsara and save sentient beings or not?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

quince
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: Lama and trust

Post by quince » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:30 pm

I just can't do it. I can't help anyone. i don't have the strenght to even continue my own simple practice. i cant apparently purify my bad karma. my life, work is too intense busy.

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