Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

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Saoshun
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Saoshun » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:45 pm

Tenso wrote:guess im canceling my membership with team salad
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Rakz
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Rakz » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:59 pm

Is that you?

Motova
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Motova » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:12 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
WuMing wrote:Why then you mentioned it in the first place?
Nevermind.

Is French kissing sexual misconduct?
Valid question....

Outside of baby making, are demonstrations of affection inappropriate? If not, where does one draw the line?
Malcolm wrote:
WuMing wrote:I think all of the Tibetan Buddhist schools regard oral and anal sex as inappropriate. This goes back to the Indian Buddhist tradition, e.g. the Abhidharmakosha (not entirely sure anymore about that text), or Ashvaghosha and Atisha. In Tibet one finds it in Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation which is the Kagyu tradition. In Patrul Rinpoche's book Words of my perfect teacher one can find it as well (Nyingma).

The reason might be that having sex using these inappropriate body parts (mouth or the anus) can only come from desire.
I think it has more to do with hygiene. Tulku Urgyen was once heard to remark "Why would anyone want to put their mouth there?"
Thanks for entering the discussion Malcolm. As a physician of Tibetan medicine, do you think any sex or affection outside of baby making has benefits to the general well-being of people in a relationship?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:39 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
WuMing wrote:Why then you mentioned it in the first place?
Nevermind.

Is French kissing sexual misconduct?
Depends on who you French kiss.

If it is sexual misconduct then all those poor suffering French people would not be "allowed" to kiss! I wonder if the rule would apply only to people with French citizenship or to Francophones in Belgium, Switzerland etc... too?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:42 pm

Motova wrote:Thanks for entering the discussion Malcolm. As a physician of Tibetan medicine, do you think any sex or affection outside of baby making has benefits to the general well-being of people in a relationship?
You need a physician to answer that for you? You don't get out much do you? :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Motova
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Motova » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:46 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Motova wrote:Thanks for entering the discussion Malcolm. As a physician of Tibetan medicine, do you think any sex or affection outside of baby making has benefits to the general well-being of people in a relationship?
You need a physician to answer that for you? You don't get out much do you? :tongue:
I meant in a Buddhist context (in the grand scheme of things), how does its benefit compare to the desire it may generate? Obviously it has benefits.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Grigoris
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:52 pm

Motova wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Motova wrote:Thanks for entering the discussion Malcolm. As a physician of Tibetan medicine, do you think any sex or affection outside of baby making has benefits to the general well-being of people in a relationship?
You need a physician to answer that for you? You don't get out much do you? :tongue:
I meant in a Buddhist context (in the grand scheme of things), how does its benefit compare to the desire it may generate? Obviously it has benefits.
"Without meditation,
beyond all renouncing,

living at home
with your wife -

if enjoying things intently
doesn't free you,

Saraha says,
how can consciousness be free?"

Depends on which Buddhist context you want to talk about.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

narraboth
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by narraboth » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:52 pm

According to the sutra translated into Tibet, Buddha himself never really gave detailed definition of sexual misconduct for lay people. Which means, Buddha didn't really say that oral sex is sexual misconduct. (In Chinese mahapitaka there is a text, but that's another story) However, Buddha gave detailed definition in sense of monk vows.

Probably based on that, we have many new 'rules' in Abhidharma texts. I personally think they are pretty much based on certain situation at that time in that society. If you read it carefully you will need all those new rules are all speaking to MEN, most possibly heterosexual men. Women in those texts are mostly like objects, can be owned or needed to be protected by kings, parents, or another man, which is not anymore valid in modern time. Put it this way: if those rules all apply, there is no way that homosexual men can obtain vows and at the same time have their normal life. However many lama don't think that way nowadays.

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:14 pm

narraboth wrote:According to the sutra translated into Tibet, Buddha himself never really gave detailed definition of sexual misconduct for lay people. Which means, Buddha didn't really say that oral sex is sexual misconduct. (In Chinese mahapitaka there is a text, but that's another story) However, Buddha gave detailed definition in sense of monk vows.
The teachings on Right Sexual Action normally emphasise the "who" of correct sexual behaviour (and do not mention homsexuality), rather than the "what".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Loren
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Loren » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:39 pm

Sex, Orgasm, and the Mind of Clear Light
Buddhism, Sexuality, and Gender
In this ground-breaking work, Tibetan Buddhist scholar Jeffrey Hopkins has adapted Tibetan philosopher Gedun Chopel's heterosexual sex manual Tibetan Arts of Love as a gay sex guide. Interweaving ecstatic poetry and prose, Hopkins shows how sexual passion can open the door to spiritual growth.

Hopkins argues that orgasm itself can bring lovers to a powerful level of consciousness. Beautifully written, the techniques show that pinching, scratching, union from the rear, switching roles, thrill cries, and oral sex all have an impact on erotic life. Hopkins concludes with four "ruminations" on the sex-friendly nature of Tibetan Buddhism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The great classics of religious literature have presumed a heterosexual audience. Gay men are left wondering: how does this relate to me, to my desire? Whatever opinion one may have regarding the spiritual relevance or feasibility of the techniques described in this book, that it presumes a gay male audience makes it an unquestionable contribution to the queering of Buddhism...a real tour de force."
-Jose Ignacio Cabezon, Illiff School of Theology, Denver, author of Buddhism, Sexuality, and Gender
Thank You and Ok!

aka Lorem

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Is French kissing sexual misconduct?
And the answer is?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:50 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Is French kissing sexual misconduct?
And the answer is?
That it is a silly question?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

dzoki
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by dzoki » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:52 pm

Much of the stuff written on this topic is not from Buddha himself, but from the later commentators, such as Nagarjuna, who were monastics and had some kind of inclination to make sexual life of laymen more boring :D
Buddha said, that it is wrong to rape, to have sex with celibates, to engage in incest and adultery. As for inappropriate times, orifices etc. nothing has been said, all of that is later stuff. There was an article on that somewhere on the web.
Also from my own experience most (if not all) monastic teachers will tell you to remain chaste as a best option, while ngagpas seem to have no problem with their students having normal sexual life. So what is wrong and what is right? Personally I would never ask a monk (even a great guru) for advice on sexual matters (especially in case that he had been monk since childhood) it would be like asking deaf person about his favorite music.

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:57 pm

dzoki wrote:...it would be like asking deaf person about his favorite music.
If you asked Beethoven I reckon you'd get a pretty good answer.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

dzoki
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by dzoki » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:58 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
dzoki wrote:...it would be like asking deaf person about his favorite music.
If you asked Beethoven I reckon you'd get a pretty good answer.
:D Yeah, but he had not been deaf since his birth, unlike many monastic teachers who have been celibate throughout their lives.

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Vajrasvapna » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:46 am

WuMing wrote:I think all of the Tibetan Buddhist schools regard oral and anal sex as inappropriate. This goes back to the Indian Buddhist tradition, e.g. the Abhidharmakosha (not entirely sure anymore about that text), or Ashvaghosha and Atisha. In Tibet one finds it in Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation which is the Kagyu tradition. In Patrul Rinpoche's book Words of my perfect teacher one can find it as well (Nyingma).

The reason might be that having sex using these inappropriate body parts (mouth or the anus) can only come from desire.
In a text attributed to Padmasambhava guru, we find:
3. It is unsuitable to have intercourse in an inappropriate orifice, such as engaging in the manner of animals.
It all depends on the definition of inappropriate orifice. My opinion is that any holes that may cause disease is not appropriate. So even the vagina would be inappropriate if it could be a source of disease. Oral sex is the one with lower risk of disease transmission, while anal sex is at higher risk, even with the use of condoms; because the risk of the condom break is great, due to lack of lubrication of the place.
dzoki wrote:Much of the stuff written on this topic is not from Buddha himself, but from the later commentators, such as Nagarjuna, who were monastics and had some kind of inclination to make sexual life of laymen more boring :D
All Buddhist texts did not come directly from the Buddha, then it would be possible to doubt of all the Buddhist scriptures. Marriage and children is problematic if you want to dedicate your life to meditation and contemplation. So the monks community works as a way to help people have a more appropriate spiritual practice environment.
it would be like asking deaf person about his favorite music.
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"People these days use whatever little dharma they know to augment afflictive emotion, and then engender tremendous pride and conceit over it. They teach the Dharma without taming their own minds. But as with a river rock , not even a hair’s tip of benefit penetrates the other people. Even worse, incorrigible people [are attracted] to this dharma that increases conflict. When individuals who could be tamed by the Dharma encounter such incorrigible, their desire for the sacred Dharma is lost. It is not the fault of the Dharma; it is the fault of individuals." Machik Labdron prophecy.

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tashipaljor
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by tashipaljor » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:28 am

I would be interested to get the recordings of Jose Cabezon's presentation at Naropa University some 4 or 5 years ago. I recall him presenting on this very topic Such as innapropriate times, orifices and the like. He mentions a whole range of material on conduct...

would you look at that just happened find a copy of his write up entitled "Thinking through Texts: Toward a Critical Buddhist Theology of Sexuality"

http://www.naropa.edu/academics/academi ... -texts.pdf
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Dharmasagara » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:35 pm

tashipaljor wrote:I would be interested to get the recordings of Jose Cabezon's presentation at Naropa University some 4 or 5 years ago. I recall him presenting on this very topic Such as innapropriate times, orifices and the like. He mentions a whole range of material on conduct...

would you look at that just happened find a copy of his write up entitled "Thinking through Texts: Toward a Critical Buddhist Theology of Sexuality"

http://www.naropa.edu/academics/academi ... -texts.pdf
Hi everybody,
it seems that José Cabezón unfortunately never made it to publish the announced book on the topic. In my humble opinion, his thoughts are among the first real attempts of a Westerner to present answers to theological issues through genuine rethinking of sources without repeating the century-old positions which have formed over time. Just summing up a few striking points from memory:

- There is very little advice of the Buddha himself on the sexual behavior for lay people (basically no incest and not taking the wife possessed by another man)
- All those restrictions to sexuality introduced somewhere around 400 CE by Vasubandhu in his Abhidharmakosha can be traced linguistically to the vinaya rules for monks. Thus monks bound by chastity took their guidelines as a ruler for the laity allowing only the strictly necessary form of sex for procreation
- When applying the logic of the advice given there you end up with a huge discrepancy between what the texts allow and what is seen as appropriate sexual behavior in the West, e.g. no rules against infidelity
- As the Buddha set out his advice at the time in order for the Buddhist community not to engender any tensions with the rest of the society, José Cabezón asks whether it is a wise think to stick to rules which obviously not fit the general moral ideas of the present

Here are two summaries of his findings:
http://www.lionsroar.com/rethinking-buddhism-and-sex" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.shedrub.org/videoplayback.php?vid=39" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Adamantine » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:20 am

This is the recently released text by Cabezon: https://www.amazon.com/Sexuality-Class ... +sexuality, reading it now.
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:28 am

beings in the intermediate state who want to be human, can they abstain from the ride?

if I don't loose the essence, if I don't cum, then no problem on this, is it?
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