Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

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PeterC
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by PeterC » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:21 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:16 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:25 am
I have bought the Cabezon book, although haven’t made a lot of headway with it yet.

What I notice is that how nearly everyone seems unaware of the sexual revolution. It’s like, it’s happened, and now it’s just the new normal - what it used to be like before then isn’t considered any more. But, before the sexual revolution happened, a lot of activities that since are just taken for granted, were taboo. The pre- and post-revolution worlds are different worlds. Unless that is understood that the question makes no sense.
People probably thought they were even more fun when they were taboo. People still did them, you can find evidence of such -long- prior to the sexual revolution.
It’s pretty clear from documentary evidence that the citizens of the Roman Empire were no less sexually adventurous than most modern societies, and with considerably less moral opprobrium.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:02 am

PeterC wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:21 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:16 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:25 am
I have bought the Cabezon book, although haven’t made a lot of headway with it yet.

What I notice is that how nearly everyone seems unaware of the sexual revolution. It’s like, it’s happened, and now it’s just the new normal - what it used to be like before then isn’t considered any more. But, before the sexual revolution happened, a lot of activities that since are just taken for granted, were taboo. The pre- and post-revolution worlds are different worlds. Unless that is understood that the question makes no sense.
People probably thought they were even more fun when they were taboo. People still did them, you can find evidence of such -long- prior to the sexual revolution.
It’s pretty clear from documentary evidence that the citizens of the Roman Empire were no less sexually adventurous than most modern societies, and with considerably less moral opprobrium.
IIRC there are actually cave paintings depicting oral sex, I can't find a source atm, but I might be able to if I searched.


Then of course there are various treatise on banned sex acts etc. The truth is (and sorry, but I think this is a pretty obvious truth if we study even a modicum of history) that societies reflexively go back and forth between extreme ideal of chasteness and cycles of more liberal attitudes towards sex, cosmopolitanism, etc. I figure it shouldn't be a big surprise on a Buddhist forum that social attitudes constrained by samsaric thought will yield movement in the direction of extremes, without end.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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florin
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by florin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:41 am

Sennin wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:02 am
florin wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:39 am
Rechungpa.
I don't get it :?:
A text authored by Rechungpa contains instructions on oral sex.
Also some early texts on Milarepa contain instructions on sexual practices where he says, among other things, that such acts should be performed without shame but in great secrecy. But i think Milarepa refers here to sexual acts in general and not oral sex specifically.These instructions are preserved in Jamgon Kongtrul’s Treasury of Instructions.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

amanitamusc
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:22 am

florin wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:41 am
Sennin wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:02 am
florin wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:39 am
Rechungpa.
I don't get it :?:
A text authored by Rechungpa contains instructions on oral sex.
Also some early texts on Milarepa contain instructions on sexual practices where he says, among other things, that such acts should be performed without shame but in great secrecy. But i think Milarepa refers here to sexual acts in general and not oral sex specifically.These instructions are preserved in Jamgon Kongtrul’s Treasury of Instructions.
Mila is also known for his penis mitten. :twothumbsup:

oldbob
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by oldbob » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:50 am

From:

http://www.purifymind.com/AdviceFromHeart.htm

Ven. Longchenpa

Sixteenth Advice

Concerning the third initiation, there is the descending of the essence and so on.
One may think that the way of the other's body will lead to outstanding progress.
But on this path of the impure many great meditators have been ensnared.
To rely upon the path of liberation is my advice from the heart.

______________________________________________________

So for a practitioner sexual expression, of any sort, is really not only a question of morality, or hygiene, or judgement of good and bad actions.

It is a question of how you use everything (including sexual energy) in the service of your practice. How do you turn everything to the path.

This can be done, but it can ensnare you too - so it is a little dangerous and should be looked at very carefully.

Again, best discussed with your Lama and then you follow their advice.

If Venerable Longchenpa had reservations - shouldn't we. There is no easy answer to this question.

So if something liberates you - you follow it. If it ensnares you - you don't.

:heart:

crazy-man
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by crazy-man » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:35 pm

there is a tantric deity combined with oral sex
Ganapati Rakta
https://www.himalayanart.org/items/207

and Ganapati Ragavajra
https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=2580

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Matt J
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Matt J » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:56 pm

But teachers are not giving arguments for them--- at least none I've come across. I feel like people are looking in texts for things to worry about that have no impact on their situation. I doubt teachers would fail to teach lay Westerners about this if it were at all relevant in the context of our practice.

Reggie Ray has an interesting perspective on integrating the dharma in the West. He said that in the 1970's, everyone thought they had to be a Tibetan. They had to think, act, and dress like Tibetans. I've noticed that many teachers are actively NOT promoting this idea--- they are not requiring students think and act in that way. In addition, much of the Tantric matrix in ancient India was made up of lay people in lay communities. In a sense, the modern transmission is a restoration of powerful practice techniques to a lay community. I see these discussions as a regression.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:19 am
The are lists of sexual misconduct that certainly mention them. They also meant lots of culturally divorced stuff like no sex before sundown, etc. if I recall. Honestly they are few and far between and often the work of celibate renunciate, I struggle with the idea that these are something to be taken as seriously as other ethical concerns in daily life, but if a teacher gave a reasoned argument I would listen.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Virgo
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Virgo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:28 pm

Matt J wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:56 pm
But teachers are not giving arguments for them--- at least none I've come across. I feel like people are looking in texts for things to worry about that have no impact on their situation. I doubt teachers would fail to teach lay Westerners about this if it were at all relevant in the context of our practice.
Well most teachers are not going to bring the topic up.

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Harimoo
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Harimoo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:33 pm

Matt J wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:56 pm
Reggie Ray has an interesting perspective on integrating the dharma in the West. He said that in the 1970's, everyone thought they had to be a Tibetan.
I don't know how Reggie Ray could say this. Since the beginning, CTR taught the contrary...
Even Alexandra David-Neel, Marco Pallis and Govinda's teacher in the 30's taught otherwise...

Simon E.
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:46 pm

They might have said this.
This hasn't stopped a large number of westerners adopting Tibetan names, dressing as Tibetans in their day to day lives, adopting a Tibetan diet and propagating a highly romanticised view of pre-invasion Tibet.
I was one of them.
It was a phase I was going through....


The fact that David-Neel was at best an unreliable witness, Govinda's guru was a Dolgyal worshipper, and Marco Pallis one of the Perennial Philosophy group, is probably not germane to your point.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Harimoo
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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Harimoo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:29 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:46 pm
The fact that David-Neel was at best an unreliable witness, Govinda's guru was a Dolgyal worshipper, and Marco Pallis one of the Perennial Philosophy group, is probably not germane to your point.
Without David-Neel, Govinda and Pallis, you'd be still a christian (at best). Respect your elders ! :smile:

I was talking about Gomchen of Lachen.

Okay some hippies on the return in the 70's thought they sould act as tibetans. It was an american minority (british also perhaps). Most of the europeans didn't fall in this deviation.

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Re: Why is Oral Sex Considered Sexual Misconduct?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:04 pm

I beg to differ. The largest, and in fact for some while the only, centre for Vajrayana in the UK, was almost entirely populated by westerners emulating Tibetans. I was there. Likewise CTR's early centres in the US..

I am not saying that this was not functional. It had a purpose. It was understandable.
But it often ended up with people alienated from the good and positive aspects of their own culture and in their erecting a whole new layer of learned behaviours that in the end had to be shed.

This started to change, but relatively recently.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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