Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

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Malcolm
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Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:48 pm

Astus commented in a now locked thread:
Vajrayana is just catching up with Dzogchen being removed from preliminaries and other rituals to turn into another form of mindfulness practice.
This represents a total misunderstanding of what Dzogchen is and what Vajrayāna is. Dzogchen is not separate from Vajrayāna in anyway shape of form. Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayāna Secret Mantra as even a cursory examination of the basic texts of the tradition will indicate.

Further, Dzogchen may not necessarily involve the four hundred thousands famous to us, in fact one of the earliest presentations of that sequence of practice is to be found in the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma tantra, which forms the foundation for most of the Nyinthig cycles from the Khandro Nyinthig onward. Moreover, there are a series of preliminary practices in Dzogchen that are indispensable such as the separation of samsara and nirvana, semzins, and so on.

Empowerment is absolutely necessary in Vajrayāna. Dzogchen Atiyoga is merely one of three inner tantra divisions. It is not in any way separate from Vajrayāna at all. Not only, they are hardly "another form of mindfulness practice."

Stick to Zen, Astus, you are out of your depth when commenting on Tibetan Buddhism.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Sherlock
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Sherlock » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:11 pm

You mean the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma does actually say 100,000 times of each practice Malcolm? Or does it state things in terms of time?

How old is Sakya ngondro?

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:28 pm

Sherlock wrote:You mean the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma does actually say 100,000 times of each practice Malcolm? Or does it state things in terms of time?

How old is Sakya ngondro?
No, I mean that the recitations of refuge, bodhicitta, mandala offerings are present. The vajrasattva section explains that one should do 100,000 or more.

Other than Vajrasattva it does not specify a number.

The Sakya Ngondro is very modern, like 20th century modern.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Astus » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:20 pm

It might be so that Dzogchen is an integral part of Vajrayana and the 9th vehicle. My statement that it's moving to a generic mindfulness practice is not a reflection on the teachings in the scriptures but how it appears to me among some who follow the Great Perfection, both on- and offline. That is, when it is simplified to the point of "just stay in the natural state". I assume you have noticed this trend as well.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Sherlock » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

The "natural state" is a very specific thing, not mindfulness.

Mindfulness is dran pa. Resting in the natural state is rig pa/vidya. But unless you have received transmission, there is really no point talking about this to you, hopefully people reading this will not be confused though.

Even dran pa in the context of Vajrayana/Dzogchen is not the same as the secular meditations popular today.

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:15 pm

Astus wrote:It might be so that Dzogchen is an integral part of Vajrayana and the 9th vehicle. My statement that it's moving to a generic mindfulness practice is not a reflection on the teachings in the scriptures but how it appears to me among some who follow the Great Perfection, both on- and offline. That is, when it is simplified to the point of "just stay in the natural state". I assume you have noticed this trend as well.
There are many people who may imagine they are "following Dzogchen teachings" who are doing nothing of the kind.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Konchok Namgyal
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Konchok Namgyal » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:57 pm

You cannot correctly practice Dzogchen without vajrayana, the paths leading to dzogchen are only through vajarayana.
everyone want to practice dzogchen but doesnt want to do the work to get there and there are alot of false teachers of dzogchen.
without the Ngongdro, the blessings and the purification practices, any attempts at Dzogpachenpo are worthless !
Recognize that your mind is the unity of being empty and cognizant, suffused with knowing. When your attention is extroverted, you fall under the sway of thoughts. Let your attention recognize itself. Recognize that it is empty. That which recognizes is the cognizance. You can trust at that moment that these two – emptiness and cognizance – are an original unity. Seeing this is called self-knowing wakefulness. ~ Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:30 pm

Konchok Namgyal wrote:You cannot correctly practice Dzogchen without vajrayana, the paths leading to dzogchen are only through vajarayana.
everyone want to practice dzogchen but doesnt want to do the work to get there and there are alot of false teachers of dzogchen.
without the Ngongdro, the blessings and the purification practices, any attempts at Dzogpachenpo are worthless !
Lots of false teachers?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Konchok Namgyal
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Konchok Namgyal » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:03 pm

Simply in reference to some " meditation " teachers who teach dzogchen without preliminaries etc.
I guess what I am getting at Malcom, is that there are alot of new age types teaching what they consider dzogcen that has only the vaguest resemblance to
traditional dzogchen practice.
Recognize that your mind is the unity of being empty and cognizant, suffused with knowing. When your attention is extroverted, you fall under the sway of thoughts. Let your attention recognize itself. Recognize that it is empty. That which recognizes is the cognizance. You can trust at that moment that these two – emptiness and cognizance – are an original unity. Seeing this is called self-knowing wakefulness. ~ Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Dan74 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:00 am

I thought you had in the past considered Dzogchen as part of the Bon tradition and some teachers teach it that way?

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shanehanner
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by shanehanner » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:14 am

Im not that familiar with Dzogchen...Is there no Ngondro then? No 100,000?

From what I have read, Dzogchen and Mahamudra are extremely similiar and this to me sounds like a big difference.

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:52 am

shanehanner wrote:Im not that familiar with Dzogchen...Is there no Ngondro then? No 100,000?

From what I have read, Dzogchen and Mahamudra are extremely similiar and this to me sounds like a big difference.
Dzogchen and Mahamudra are not extremely similiar. Especially the path is different.
Dzogchen is much older than the 4 (or 5) special Ngondros. Of course they can be practised, but this depends on the teacher and on the student. Dzogchen has its own set of preliminary practises btw.

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shanehanner
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by shanehanner » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:43 pm

What are the Dzogchen preliminaries?

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:45 pm

shanehanner wrote:What are the Dzogchen preliminaries?
You should learn those from a teacher.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:39 pm

Dan74 wrote:I thought you had in the past considered Dzogchen as part of the Bon tradition and some teachers teach it that way?
Do you consider Bön as being a non-Buddhist tradition?

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Sherlock » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:55 pm

Zhangzhung Nyen gyud is Bon Dzogchen from a prior age before Garab Dorje.

But Bon today is basically a copy of Buddhism, very similar to Gelug actually.

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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by tingdzin » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:56 pm

"Bon" today covers a lot of territory. There are self-described Bonpos in Tibet who do animal sacrifices, while the Yungdrung Bon tradition holds that sacrificing is wrong. There are Bonpo monastics who follow an academic curriculum as long and rigorous ass that of the Gelug, and there are village Bonpos who do not study doctrines at all, but are mostly ritual specialists. Generalizing about Bon is almost as risky as generalizing about "Buddhism".

The historical claims by some Bonpo about the extreme antiquity of their tradition have to be taken with a grain of salt for alarge number of reasons.

The question of whether Bon is "Buddhism" has been discussed a lot here, and the question of the mutual influence of what we now call Nyingmapa and Bonpo teachings of Dzogchen is still a very open one.

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:57 pm

Sherlock wrote:Zhangzhung Nyen gyud is Bon Dzogchen from a prior age before Garab Dorje.
Maybe, I have my doubts.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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weitsicht
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by weitsicht » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:48 pm
Dzogchen is not separate from Vajrayāna in anyway shape of form. Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayāna Secret Mantra as even a cursory examination of the basic texts of the tradition will indicate.

Further, Dzogchen may not necessarily involve the four hundred thousands famous to us, in fact one of the earliest presentations of that sequence of practice is to be found in the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma tantra, which forms the foundation for most of the Nyinthig cycles from the Khandro Nyinthig onward. Moreover, there are a series of preliminary practices in Dzogchen that are indispensable such as the separation of samsara and nirvana, semzins, and so on.

Empowerment is absolutely necessary in Vajrayāna. Dzogchen Atiyoga is merely one of three inner tantra divisions. It is not in any way separate from Vajrayāna at all."
In this whole DJKR's response to Bernie debate I found the following post
Hridaya Artha wrote: If old style Dzogchen or Mahāmudrā are being taught, since they are a path of direct perception and natural luminosity, beyond sūtra and tantra, then samaya legislation simply doesn’t apply. Gampopa used to give mahāmudrā instruction to those who were not (tantrically or otherwise) « prepared ». Samaya and lack of preparation don’t come into the picture at all. It is not through old style Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā that one gets caught up in samaya troubles.

For those following « package deals », things may be differently according to the specific small print of those « deals ». Fortunately direct perception and natural luminosity are beyond deals.
Is that contradictory to what Malcolm said?

Are Dzogchen and Mahamudra outside the samaya frame or not?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayāna/Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:12 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Is that contradictory to what Malcolm said?

Are Dzogchen and Mahamudra outside the samaya frame or not?
Yes, the person who wrote that has no idea what they are talking about.

No, Dzogchen and Mahāmudra are not outside of the samaya framework at all. It is a misconception which goes back to at least the 12th century.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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